Mr. GARNER. You are retired now?

Mr. BOYD. I am retired.

Mr. GARNER. Since that time you have been running a private detective agency, except during the time that you were in the Naval Intelligence?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; since the war I have been running a private detective agency. I was employed by the Soldiers' and Sailors' Legion to locate this mailing list. During my investigation I came to the conclusion that Mr. Lovenbein's association is what I would call a oneman association. All that I could find was four members. And the Department of Justice informed me that they were investigating him for disloyal speeches that he made Down East. I know nothing about that except what I was informed by the Department of Justice.

Mr. KITCHIN. It seems to me that it might be a violation of the antitrust law if he would have a monopoly of this organization, only one member.

Mr. BOYD. The Post Office Department was investigating him for receiving subscriptions after the paper was suspended that he was publishing.

Mr. KITCHIN. But you do not know what became of these subscribers?

Mr. BOYD. I do not know what became of them. I was not interested in him for anything except locating that mailing list that he told me he had destroyed, and I located it where he had sold it to the Stars and Stripes. Lieut. Jones informed me that they had given him $50 and intended to give him more for it. At the time that he sold it there was an attachment for it, and the United States marshal was out looking for him.

Mr. GREEN. Is there anything else?

Mr. KITCHIN. Now, Mr. Lovenbein, have you anything to say in reply to that?

(At this point Mr. Fordney resumed the chair.)

Mr. GREEN. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we should go on here with other witnesses.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. KITCHIN. I think Mr. Lovenbein should have an opportunity to reply.

Mr. GREEN. I object, Mr. Chairman. I do not think we ought to go on with this any further. Of course I yield whatever the chairman rules.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to be agreeable to the wishes of the members of the committee, and if the members of the committee wish to hear Mr. Lovenbein's reply very well.

Mr. KITCHIN. Let him go ahead. It seems to me he has a right to deny or answer the statement of Mr. Boyd if he can or desires to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. But I think if people are allowed to answer back and forth without limit, if we go on with statements of this kind, it might go on indefinitely.

Mr. KITCHIN. I submit that he has a right to make a statement, and the committee can take it for what it is worth.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. LOVENBEIN-Resumed.

The CHAIRMAN. How long do you want to answer?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. I do not think this needs much answer to it.
The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. I do not think it needs much answer. He did not say anything.

The CHAIRMAN. That is for the committee to decide. We will hear you for a few minutes and see what you have to say.

Mr. LOVENBEIN. Well, he came around there after we had transferred our mailing list to the Stars and Stripes, and he said, "I am a detective." I said, "You are a detective?' He said, "Yes; I want your mailing list." I said, "If you are a detective, go and find the list." He went down in the cellar and found a lot of

The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell him you had burned the list?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. We did burn up a lot of what we call dead names. We accumulate, every two or three months, a lot of names of people who have moved and have left no new address.

The CHAIRMAN. Why did you burn them? Mr. LOVENBEIN. I did not burn them up. He had a bunch of them that he found downstairs in the furnace room, and he said, "What did you do, burn them up?"

The CHAIRMAN. You say that you did not burn them, and yet he asked you if you burned them up. If you did not, who did?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. That class of names was not worth anything to anybody. They were no good to us. They were down in the furnace

room.

Mr. HAWLEY. These were names of subscribers who had moved away without notifying you of their changed address?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. Yes.

Mr. HAWLEY. Did you get $50 for the mailing list?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. I gave the Stars and Stripes the mailing list for $1, and the bill of sale was made out "$1 and other considerations." Mr. HAWLEY. Did they agree to pay you any more than $1?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. If they did, I didn't know. If they did, I wouldn't have taken it, because there was no value. I have gotten money from them since; yes. I got 25 cents to-day from them to go and get my lunch.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you put in "and other considerations" for?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. Because that is the usual way a bill of sale is made out.

The CHAIRMAN. No; that means something.

Mr. LOVENBEIN. The consideration was to get some write ups in the paper.

I didn't figure, when this man came down there from the Soldiers and Sailors Legion and asked to look into my business, that he had any right. I don't know what right this man had interfering there. The United States marshal never served any papers on me. My mailing list was up there at the Stars and Stripes. He came down from the United States marshal, and he said, "Here are some papers served on you"; and I looked and I saw Marvin J. Sperry's name on it. I never paid any attention to it.

We have been working in a nice, quiet way, taking over their posts; one post here in town with about 90 members, they came to our organization; and I figured if this thing had not come out we would not have mentioned it. We are working for a purpose. We are not working to fight a little organization that does not amount to anything, that has not got money enough to

Mr. GARNER. Buy lunch?

The CHAIRMAN. The statement the gentleman made is incorrect, is it?

Mr. LOVENBEIN. Some part of it is, yes, sir; nearly all of it, for that

matter.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all.

Mr. SPERRY. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry to take up the time of the committee, but in justice to the Private Soldiers and Sailors Legion, and in justice to Mr. Martin, I ask the committee to hear Mr. Martin for five minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Martin ?

Mr. SPERRY. Yes; he has been mentioned here.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is proper. I would like to ask Mr. Martin what interest he takes in this organization. I think the committee would like to know. His name has been mentioned many times in connection with the controversy.

STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY B. MARTIN.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell the reporter who you are, Mr. Martin, and whom you represent.

Mr. MARTIN. My name is Henry B. Martin.

The CHAIRMAN. And whom do you represent?

Mr. MARTIN. I am simply a citizen.

Mr. GARNER. And give your address.

Mr. MARTIN. Six hundred and six Ninth Street, Washington, D. C. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am obliged to you for the opportunity to say a word to the committee in the light of what has been said by the last witness or the next to the last witness, Mr. Lovenbein, and also in view of the construction that some members of the committee seem to attach to his statement. The only relation I ever had with Mr. Lovenbein was that he. repeatedly sought me out and endeavored to interest me in buying the paper, or getting some one who would buy his paper, at the time when he was bankrupt in November. He had started to publish this paper and was in a condition of bankruptcy, unable to pay his creditors, and wanted to know if I could not raise him some money or buy the paper. I said that I would talk to the boys that I knew and talk to some friends, and see if I could not. I sympathized with the fellow in his position, and, although I did not agree with his views and expressions on economic questions, and so on, yet I sympathized with him in his financial distress, and I thought that if I could aid him in any way I would be glad to do it; but I was unable, in view of the statement he gave as to his financial condition, to interest anyone to put up the money; and in the course of his talk with me I found that he wanted me to raise him ten or eleven or twelve

thousand dollars and turn it over to him, and he said that he would pay that much to his creditors. I found out afterwards that with one or two of the creditors he had named the amount that he owed them was 50 per cent above what they said he owed them, and apparently he wanted to get me to pay him a much larger sum than he owed to this creditors and then compromise with them and put the balance in his pocket. As soon as I found out that was what he was trying to do I decided that it was not a good transaction, and that I could not recommend my friends to take it.

He did state to me that he had destroyed the list-that he had burned it up. He stated that in the presence of Mr. Boyd, the United States marshal, Mr. Sperry, myself, and I think two or three other gentlemen; when, at the same time that he made that statement, he knew that he had not burned it up, and he knew that he had sold it to the Stars and Stripes.

Now, in reference to what has been said by Lovenbein and Halper in regard to my dominating the Private Soldiers and Sailors Legion, or Mr. Sperry, that is all absolutely false, Mr. Chairman. The Private Soldiers and Sailors Legion is entirely controlled by the private soldiers and sailors themselves. I am not a member of it. They absolutely have control over it, and I have no influence whatever other than if they come to me at times and ask me to advise them with regard to some bill or some legislation, on economic questions, and some of them who have known me for many years have done me the honor to say that they thought my advice was of some value to them.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your profession?

Mr. MARTIN. I am a writer by profession, and I have been interested for many years in legislation affecting economic conditions in the United States. I have been especially interested in legislation respecting the regulation and control and abolition of trusts and monopolies, and it was in that connection that the controversy arose which I presume was in Mr. Kitchin's mind when he asked the question of Mr. Lovenbein in regard to my being connected with a gentleman named Lamar, and in regard to some prosecution. I am going to ask that I may state the facts to you gentlemen of the committee, inasmuch as apparently Mr. Kitchin, and possibly other members of the committee, have entirely a wrong impression as to what the facts are in regard to that case.

Mr. KITCHIN. Pardon me, one minute, Mr. Martin-I never referred to anything at all about it. He volunteered the information, which was a surprise to a great many members of the committee, and I am very glad that you took the stand to explain and refute, if you can, what he said, because it would be a great imputation upon your character if you really are under a penitentiary sentence, awaiting a final decision by the Supreme Court.

Mr. MARTIN. What surprised me was the expression used by Mr. Kitchin, that it was in the nature of a dark crime of a serious character. The offense that I was charged with in April, 1915, along with two Members of the House of Representatives and other gentlemen of high character and standing, was the offense of committing a misdemeanor in violation of the antitrust law in attempting to restrain the commerce of the United States; a violation of the antitrust law, a thing which I never had any power to do or any disposition to do;

an offense in proof of the commission of which not one word of evidence, oral or documentary, was ever introduced in any court.

The only two witnesses who were introduced into the court to testify by the United States attorney against me both swore under oath on their direct examination and on the cross examination that I did not do the things that the district attorney in New York had charged me with doing.

Mr. GREEN. What were those things?

Mr. MARTIN. Those two things were the charge that I had sent one of these men to Bridgeport to instigate a strike in the Remington Arms Co.'s works. He testified that I did not send him there to instigate a strike; that, in fact, I urged him, in talking about it, wherever he could, to avoid strikes; that I did not believe in strikes.

For twenty-odd years I have advised workmen against strikes and advised them to use the ballot to get what they wanted by peaceable and lawful means; that in great industries, such as were involved in a great country like the United States, every great strike became an incipient civil war; so that I was opposed to it.

The other witness testified to absolutely the contrary of what the charge was in the district attorney's indictment. And, by the way, the testimony was taken by the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives in 1916, in which a former district attorney, the immediate predecessor of the district attorney, Marshall, who brought this charge against me, testified that the grand jury in the southern district of New York was simply a rubber stamp in the hands of the district attorney, and that he could indict anybody he pleased; and the jurymen's testimony indicated that, and the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives reported accordingly; and they also reported to the House that Mr. Marshall, the district attorney who brought this charge against me, by reason of his extraordinary conduct in this case and other cases, was a man unfit to hold the office of district attorney. On that question, before the House, the vote of the House was 215 to 85 that he was a man unfit to hold the office of district attorney on account of his conduct in this case and other similar cases in New York.

Mr. LONGWORTH. In that case?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; and other cases.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Was your case submitted to the House of Representatives?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it was.

Mr. KITCHIN. If I recall correctly, I thought that was the case of Congressman Buchanan.

Mr. MARTIN. The same case. Buchanan, Fowler, and myself were indicted in this same case.

Mr. KITCHIN. I recall the case of Buchanan and Fowler, but I do not recall your case being specifically mentioned in that report, or that you were especially exonerated one way or the other.

Mr. MARTIN. No; it was not only the exoneration; it was a case of the improper conduct of the district attorney.

Mr. KITCHIN. They reported that he was in contempt of the House

for the manner in which he treated the House committee.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; and that was the kind of a man that brought a rubber stamp indictment against me.