The report is especially complete as to the West, because, with a view to irrigation, private companies, and the Government, under the reclamation act, have from time to time made extensive surveys and examinations. The report is illuminating in that it indicates the number available areas in various parts of the country that were found, with even the superficial and hurried examination that was made by the Secretary.

Mr. HAWLEY. Do you remember the accurate total of all these areas in acres?

Mr. MONDELL. No; I do not, but we know the total of unused lands in the United States is very great. One who has traveled about in Virginia and Maryland, adjacent to the Capital, has noticed very considerable areas here within sight of the Dome of the Capitol. It may not be the very best land, but still lands that could be made available for settlement, and could be made productive in a remunerative way.

The plan and purpose of this legislation is not a plan and purpose necessarily confined to settlement by soldiers. I am of the opinion that eventually it may be advisable for the Federal Government to give aid and encouragement to a general plan for the restoration and the development of farming areas. Every civilized country since the world began has had its back to the land problem, and it becomes more acute as civilization develops, and becomes more and more complex, and with that development urban settlement becomes more attractive. With all due regard for those who live in and grow up in cities, it is the verdict of history that every nation must, in the long run, depend very largely on the sinew and energy developed in the country; for its best mental equipment and capacity, on the folks who live on farms, or in small country towns, with their country atmosphere. The best balanced folks are those who grow up near to nature. It is that class of folks that you find everywhere in the commercial world, in the business world, in the political world, occupying stations of trust and responsbility.

There is always and ever present the necessity for influences and activities persuading men to cultivate the soil, to remain in and develop the country. There are always attractions in cities, and as time goes on and science and invention multiply the attractions of city and urban life, the problem of getting people back on the land and keeping them on the land and making it worth their while to stay on the land constantly increases.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Do you not think, Mr. Mondell, that the attractions of the cities are not quite so noticeable of late as they were formerly.

Mr. MONDELL. I am afraid they are more attractive right at this minute than they have ever been.

Mr. GARNER. And continue more so each year?

Mr. MONDELL. For instance, a man who pushes a plane or drives a nail or lays brick in some localities in this country is getting a dollar and a quarter an hour. Think of a dollar and a quarter an hour measured in farm products, where on the face of God's footstool could anybody make a dollar and a quarter an hour, growing farm products except at a price so high that nobody could afford to buy them, not even the man who is getting a dollar and a quarter an hour. Mr. GARNER. And he could not make 62 cents an hour.

Mr. MONDELL. Agricultural products may be high now, and they are, compared to what they were, but they have not reached any dollar and a quarter an hour level, or anything like it. While it is true that every one who lives in the city is not getting a dollar and a quarter an bour, it is true that a great many people in certain trades and certain employments are making in the neighborhood of a dollar an hour for every hour they work, and when you translate that into farm product values, there are no agricultural lands anywhere except. those growing some very special crops, under extraordinary condi tions that can bring any such return as that. Imagine a man raising wheat on the basis of a dollar and a quarter an hour. What would wheat so grown be worth? $4 or $5 a bushel at the very least. Further, we have the picture shows, attractions without end in the cities and towns. Life in the country is a quiet life, at best, and while it is the life that best molds character, builds up physical strength and endows men and women to meet the problems of life, it is a long way from the bright lights, and do the best you can to the people who have tasted of the excitement of cities it seems rather dull and drab. Thank God it still attracts the children. Young people still like to be in the country, and they still prefer the woods and fields to the city pavements. If it was not for them I do not know what would happen to us, because every family that has children has a constant influence toward the open fields and country

life.

So that this plan is not necessarily wholly a soldier-settlement plan. In some way, through some agency, some time we must, as a people, do more toward attracting folks to the country and aiding in the restoration of the waste places, and in making the waste places useful, fertile, and attractive.

The basis of this plan, whether you apply it to soldiers or to folks generally, is the settlement of a community, and I will refer to that just a little later. Under this plan, with an appropriation of. say, $50,000,000, $60,000,000, or $75,000,000 a year, it is anticipated that the Secretary could inaugurate at least one of these undertakings in each one of the States, and in the States where the settlements would small, several. We must bear in mind, however, that in order to make this plan successful it is necessary to have an area large enough for a settlement, for a community, large enough to establish the community spirit and to have, so far as the people may desire, community cooperation and control.

In the main, it would not be necessary to make any considerable investment in lands in any part of the country. Where they are held in large areas by individual owners, the individual owner would, in the majority of cases, be very glad indeed to make some arrangement with the Government whereby his return would come as a part of the repayment as it was made upon the investment. So that it is not a part of the plan or purpose to make large land investments, but, either to take public lands in the public land States, or in the east, south, and the central States, in the main, except where it is necessary to buy up a small holding here and there, to secure areas that could be secured under an arrangement whereby payment for the land would come as the payments were made upon the project.

The project having been selected at any point, east, west, north, or south, the Secretary of the Interior would announce that fact to

the soldiers, and they would be invited to participate in the development of the project at reasonable wages. It would be their project, and they would be invited to do the work necessary to make these lands habitable and attractive.

There was a land opening in Wyoming about a week ago, on an irrigation project developed under a plan similar to this. By an act recently passed ex-soldiers are given a sixty day preference. I think there were less than 100 farms, and over 3,000 soldier applications.

There will be another opening in northern Wyoming in a few days, under another irrigation project, involving less than 50 farms, and undoubtedly there will be quite as many applicants as there were in the case of the North Platt project, so there is a demand from the soldiers for these lands.

(Whereupon, at 11.20 o'clock a. m., the committee recessed until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

The committee reassembled at 2 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of a recess.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. We will proceed to hear Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell, you want to be heard for 30 minutes, you say?

Mr. MONDELL. Whatever time you say.

Mr. GARNER. We will hear Mr. Mondell until he concludes.
The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to have you proceed.

Mr. MONDELL. Mr. Chairman, when I concluded this morning I stated that an area having been selected and secured large enough to furnish homes for a sufficient number of families to form a more or less independent community, the Secretary, through agencies that he would organize, would proceed to do and perform the work necessary to place the lands in a condition to make them available as farms, utilizing the services of the soldiers for that purpose; in other words, do just what we do now on the national reclamation projects, except that the work, instead of being wholly irrigation reclamation work, as in the West, would be reclamation in some cases by drainage, in other cases the removal of stumps, in other cases leveling, the removal of rocks, fertilization, planting of a first fertilizing crop, removal of brush, generally the work necessary to put a particular tract in condition for cultivation. The tract would then be divided into farms of varying sizes.

Mr. TIMBERLAKE. Mr. Mondell, did the recommendation of the Secretary of the Interior suggest that in addition to that that this work to be performed by these soldiers for pay would include the construction of any buildings on the land?

Mr. MONDELL. I have not reached that point. I will reach it soon. The lands of the project having been brought to a condition where they are fit for cultivation, they are divided into farms of varying sizes with a view to having farms large enough to reasonably support a family, as under the national reclamation law.

In a project of ordinary size there would be selected somewhere in the project a community center or town, divided into lots and into larger areas, for the use of those who desired gardening tracts-those who might live in or be employed in the town; areas of a block or two, or 2 or 3 or possibly 4 or 5 or 10 acres.

This having been done, the law provides:

That sale prices shall be fixed with a view of repaying the total cost of each project, and the price fixed for each farm, tract, or lot shall represent as nearly as practicable its selling value compared with the other units of the project, the aggregate not to exceed the total cost of the project.

These prices having been fixed as they are now fixed on reclamation projects, the ex-service men are given an opportunity to select their farming areas.

The payment to be made would be the same as the first payment now under the reclamation law, 5 per cent. It is assumed that these areas, these farms, would average about $5,000. As the soldier would be employed upon the tract during the period of its development, which would be anywhere from a year to two and one-half years, if he was at all diligent and saving he could very easily save enough to make his first payment of $250 or $300. The balance of the payment above the 5 per cent is to be paid in amortization payments running over a period, not to exceed 40 years, fixed by the Secretary of the Interior.

So far the procedure would be exactly what it is under the reclamation projects now. The bill goes further, however, than we have gone under the reclamation projects and provides that the Secretary will also make loans, not to exceed $1,500, for the purpose of improvements, but these loans are not to exceed 75 per cent of the value of the improvements on which the loans are made. The idea is that a man, having selected his tract, would proceed to aid in the construction of his buildings and in the making of improvements. Any man would be able to build his own fences, and most men would be able to furnish labor and do considerable in the way of helping to erect his buildings.

In California, where they have such a plan under State law and where the provision is that the loan shall not exceed 60 per cent of the value of the improvements, the plan usually followed is that of contracting with the settler for his buildings, the contract price by the State as a loan being about 60 per cent of the estimated cost of the improvements.

There is also a provision in the bill for a loan for live stock and machinery not to exceed $1,200 in any one case, and with a similar provision that the loan shall not exceed 60 per cent of the value of the stock and equipment on which the loan is made. Anyone who is familiar with farming operations readily understands how that would be accomplished. The man who has been on the project, has been at work, and throughout the period he has been accumulating something. He has probably made some purchases in the way of live stock. He has a sufficient accumulation so that he could readily meet his part of the investment.

The bill is drawn on the theory-and whether it would work out or not no one can say absolutely but it is drawn on the theory that a man can go on one of these projects at its inception and, working there steadily at a reasonable wage, be able by the time the project is completed and he is ready to select his farm and make his improvements, to have accumulated enough to meet all of his obligations. Mr. YOUNG. Would you mind a question at that point, Mr. Mondell?

Mr. MONDELL. No.

Mr. YOUNG. I understood from what you have said that in cases where lands have been opened to soldiers on some of the projects out West that have been opened up lately to settlement, that there were a very great number of applications.

Mr. MONDELL. Yes.

Mr. YOUNG. I was wondering whether the applicants should not be required to show their ability to go ahead and take care of these allotments, if they should get them, because it is easy to see that men such as you speak of that go out and work as you have mentioned, help to build dams and help to do other work and get some money ahead and get familiar with the neighborhood, will be in shape to qualify, but many others might file over them who had no qualifications except the initial qualification to make the application, whatever it is, but would have no ability to go ahead and take care of it afterwards. Should there not be some provision guarding against that?

Mr. MONDELL. The bill provides:

That soldiers who are not the owners or proprietors of farms or rural homes shall be eligible as purchasers of a farm or farm workers' tract.

Farm workers' tract is the term used to describe the small tract in the vicinity of a town.

Preference shall be given to those who have been employed and rendered substantial service in the development of any such projects, and as between applicants with a view of safeguarding the settler and the United States, so far as practicable, against loss or failure.

Discretion is lodged with the Secretary wide enough to authorize him to exercise a choice as between those making applications; something, by the way, that you can not do on reclamation projects now, and it is claimed to be one of the faults of the present reclamation system that the lands on reclamation projects are opened to all comers who are qualified as homesteaders, with the result that sometimes men make the initial payment of 5 per cent and are not able to make good. They may not have had the necessary experience. It would be better in some cases if a man was advised that he ought not to undertake the responsibility, or if the Secretary would suggest, as between a farm and a workers' tract, that the man take the smaller tract where the obligation would not be so great.

I referred this morning to the fact that several thousand soldiers have applied for some sixty odd tracts in eastern Wyoming. Each one of those men came forward with his 5 per cent. All of the applicants came forward with the initial payment.

Now, Mr. Chairman, briefly, this is the plan. The very great advantage of a plan like this, for the reclamation or bringing of lands back to use and settlement and giving men an opportunity to secure a farm home, lies in the fact that it has been demonstrated that you can loan a man up to pretty near the value of the property he acquires, where he is in a settlement of those like conditioned with himself, with much greater hope of a successful outcome than in the case of isolated loans scattered here and there.

One of the reasons why an area, once passed over and left undeveloped in a developed country, is not developed later, one of the reasons why lands once deserted are slow in being restored, lies in the fact that it is very difficult to get people to go into communities where the majority of the people are established and prosperous and