On the merits of the matter, it seems that the parties have been getting the British and the Iranians closer together, closer and closer together, and I should hope if reason prevails here, they are close enough so that it can be done. But

The CHAIRMAN. That is a big "if."

Secretary ACHESON. It is really like negotiating on a powder keg, with somebody throwing matches into it. Any one of them is likely to blow the whole thing up.

Senator TAFT. Are the Moslems more Communist or less Communist and sympathetic than Mossadegh?

Secretary ACHESON. NO.

Senator TAFT. More anti-British, perhaps?

Secretary ACHESON. Yes.

Well, they are all about as anti-British as they could be. Kashani's group are religious fanatics. They are the extreme, the old fighting Moslem idea. They are negotiating with and playing with the Tudeh Party, the Communist Party.

They are under the illusion that they can use the Communists and then chew them up and get rid of them when they want to. That has never happened very well, and I do not think it will work with them.

The Communists, of course, think they can work with them, so there is very great opposition between the two groups, neither one of which trusts the other, and playing together, and both of them hoping to beat the fellow to the draw at a critical moment.

Mossadegh, I think, has a more solid popular support, but this support is pretty wild, too, and sometimes you are not clear who is supporting whom. When these mobs begin rioting, they start out to support one side, and end up by supporting the other. It is a pretty disorderly situation. So all I can say is that there is a hope that this thing can be done, but that things can be blown wide open any hour of the day without any notice in advance.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions, Senator Taft?
Senator TAFT. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gillette?

THE MILITARY BALANCE IN EUROPE

Senator GILLETT. Mr. Secretary, I wish you would amplify in your comment the statements that you made earlier in your presentation referring to the distinct gains that have been made. You referred to the fact that there was a time when there was nothing whatever that we could interpose in the way of an attack or turning maneuvers by the Soviet Government, and that you thought we had reached a point where it would, at least, be a very difficult matter for them to undertake.

Then, later in referring to the statement that General Ridgway made, you said that Ridgway very frankly stated that he did not have enough force to carry out his mission. Will you comment on those two statements, particularly what his mission is, and if he doesn't have the force to accomplish his mission, what reason for optimism was there, that we had sufficient force to make it a very hazardous effort for the Soviets to launch such an attack?

Secretary ACHESON. I do not remember exactly the words which I used to describe General Ridgway's mission, but roughly, and subject to getting the thing straight from the paper itself, it is about what we have always said is what we wished to attain, that is, to have a force in being or soon to be in being, which would accomplish two purposes:

One would be to prevent war, to deter war, to prevent any attack, and the other would be if the worst happened, if we were attacked, to conduct this successful offense and ultimately to win the war.

Now, he cannot accomplish the mission stated that way now because he has not got sufficient force.

Senator FERGUSON. That is, either one of those missions? Secretary ACHESON. Well, either one of those missions completely.

SOVIETS COULD NOT OVERRUN EUROPE WITHOUT MOBILIZATION

But what I was saying earlier, Senator, before you came in I think, is that what we have now got is a force which is sufficient to make it impossible for the existing Communist forces in Europe to take off and overrun Europe.

Senator FERGUSON. Do I understand that Communist forces in Europe means in Poland, in East Germany?

Secretary ACHESON. What it really means is in East Germany.
Senator FERGUSON. East Germany?

Secretary ACHESON. Yes; and it means that for the reason that I will go on to state

Senator FERGUSON. Not in Austria?

Secretary ACHESON. Well, I had not thought about Austria. I do not know the military answer to that, but not very strong forces in Austria exist on either side.

What I went on to say is that the reason that that achievement is an important achievement is that it would require some considerable degree of mobilization to augment the forces in East Germany to make it a successful attack, and that is something which is observable, and something of which we will have cognizance.

Senator GILLETTE. That is my question.

Secretary ACHESON. That is why we are happy that we have been able to do that much, and as we can do more, everybody ought to be happier still.

Senator GILLETTE. That is all that I wanted to ask him, Mr. Chair

man.

Senator SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I regret that I have to go to a meeting of my New Jersey people. I want to thank the Secretary for coming this morning and for his statement here, and to express again my appreciation of the many meetings we have had together, and our personal relationship, and I hope that will always obtain.

Secretary ACHESON. Thank you; it is very gracious of you.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sparkman?

Senator SPARKMAN. No questions.

Senator FERGUSON. I have two questions.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon, Senator.

NAZIISM IN WEST GERMANY

Senator FERGUSON. This morning I heard that the idea of Naziism in Germany, in the West part of it, on a survey is entirely different than the High Commissioner thinks that it is. What have you got to say about that? He made a survey, and better than half of the people appear to be in sympathy with what Hitler had done, and all, which would indicate clearly that what we have done in Germany has been a failure

Secretary ACHESON. I heard

Senator FERGUSON [continuing]. Along that line.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. The NBC broadcast this morning

Senator FERGUSON. That is what I refer to.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. Which gave you that report, and
I found it a disturbing report.

This is said to have come out of a questionnaire or
Senator FERGUSON. Twelve hundred people.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. Poll or something, which the
Office of the High Commissioner carried out.

I have not seen it, and I do not know anything about it.

It is not in accord with what Mr. McCloy's last conclusions were, and what I should want to do would be to have the poll or whatever it is before me, and see what they asked and where they asked it, and what kind of a sampling it was, and also get Mr. McCloy's judgment about it.

I did not find that when I talked with representatives of the Chancellor in Europe, that he was deeply troubled about this.

There has been a recrudescence of this sort of thing, and I think everybody has felt that it has potential dangers to Germany of a high nature. That is one of the reasons I think why the treaty and the European army, the coal and steel community, this political union they are working on in Strasbourg now are so important.

I think there is a strong feeling in Germany that all those elements which are very vigorous, if they have support, can meet and frustrate anything of this sort. If they are closely allied with Western Europe they can do it. If they are left alone, then there seems to be a weakness in Germany in dealing with totalitarian movements. Therefore, I found the report disturbing, as disturbing as you did, but I have not got any conclusions about it.

Senator FERGUSON. You have not got any direct information about it?

Secretary ACHESON. No sir: I have not seen it at all

Senator FERGUSON. From diplomatic sources about it?
Secretary ACHESON. NO.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you know how that, for instance, gets out and gets published before you have it here by cable?

Secretary ACHESON. I do not know unless the High Commissioner's Office put it out.

Mr. Perkins is the Assistant Secretary; he is not in charge of Germany now, but will soon be, I hope.

E

George, have you got any views about it?

Mr. PERKINS. No. Apparently there was a release in Bonn by the High Commissioner's Office of this questionnaire.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the gist of it?

Mr. PERKINS. As Senator Ferguson has indicated, that there was a growing feeling toward Naziism. There was an article in the Times yesterday by Drew Middleton which, I think, is where NBC got this from, which I read, but I again have not seen the details of it. You could not really get a very clear picture from that.

I think the main impression I got from it was there was an apathy towards Naziism rather than a great number of people being for it, but it is something that needs to be studied much more carefully than we have been able to do.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through, Senator?
Senator FERGSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Humphrey?

SOVIET BLOC FORCES IN EAST GERMANY

Senator HUMPHREY. I think, as a point of clarification, the Secretary referred to the forces in East Germany, in answer to Senator Gillette's question. Is it the case, Mr. Secretary, that the bulk of the Soviet forces that would pose as an immediate threat to the security of Western Europe are located in East Germany?

Secretary ACHESON. There are substantial Soviet forces, and then, as you know, the Soviet authorities and the East German authorities have created this force called the Bereitschaften, which is really an army, with heavy equipment, tanks, airplanes, and all of that, and is built on the theory that it can be almost immediately expanded, and can be doubled at once by just taking a new man and putting him alongside of each fellow in it, and you double the thing. You have got a highly trained corps with a few new people in it.

That force, plus the Soviet forces, are the ones which have been bothering everybody because they are fully equipped, fueled, and have got all the reserves of ammunition and everything else they need to take off.

If they took off, and there is nothing to oppose them, then you are in real trouble. Once you have a situation where they cannot achieve a quick result without a mobilization, that is a wholly different situation.

Senator HUMPHREY. In other words, General Ridgway and his staff feel that that would be the immediate threat, is that a fair question?

Secretary ACHESON. I believe so.

Senator HUMPHREY. We are now prepared under NATO to meet that threat with existing forces?

Secretary ACHESON. I think it is fair to say that; I would not want to pose as the chief of staff.

Senator HUMPHREY. I know, but from your observations and your understanding of it!

Secretary ACHESON. Yes, that would be so.

GAULLIST SUPPORT FOR THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT

Senator HUMPHREY. Just one final question. We read so much in recent days about the coalition with the Gaullists in France, where the new government, the new Prime Minister, is taking-has received some of his support from the Gaullist group in the Chamber of Deputies. Will this have any effect, any appreciable effect, upon the conclusion of the treaty for the European Defense Community or the final statement of that treaty? Will it bring forth new limitations?

Secretary ACHESON. I think that this is one of the problems which has to be surmounted.

As I get what has happened, it is that there has not been a complete support of Rene Mayer by the Gaullists but by some of the Gaullists; is that about right?

Mr. PERKINS. Yes.

Secretary ACHESON. The Gaullist party has shown a tendency to split.

Senator HUMPHREY. I see.

Secretary ACHESON. The more extreme ones have followed de Gaulle's view that he would have no part in any kind of a government until you had a wholly new constitution and a different setup

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. And everything else.

Quite a group have split off from that, and have believed that they can and should work with less extreme governments.

Now, they have all been unhappy about the European army because they go back to the tradition of the French army. Therefore, I think that they will have to have and there will have to be some reassurances to that group which is less extreme than de Gaulle himself. Certain French worries can be met, and the principal ones, I think, are those that I was mentioning to you earlier, and that there is more assurance that there can be a release of certain units, if necessary, for French purposes; that the French officer corps will be dealt with in such a way that if you release a group of the officers in it, it will be the officers that the French Government would want, and the French Government will have some part in selecting.

I think they want more than association by the British in the army. I think those things can be done, and there are one or two others along that line; and I gather from Mayer that he does not expect to renegotiate the treaties.

What he wants is some interpretative protocols which say that this article means, "If we are in trouble we can do this, that and the other thing."

FRENCH ACTION ON EDC

Senator HUMPHREY. In other words, the new Prime Minister is still committed to forwarding the treaties?

Secretary ACHESON. He is, and he has said he will put it before the committee almost immediately, and then it will go forward through committee stages to parliamentary action probably in March.