was of tremendous value in forcing a confession, that it had a value that was much more than actually recording

Senator FULBRIGHT. Psychological warfare.

Senator TAFT. It has had a very tremendous effect in that case. They have said, however, that they have used it in the State Department-well, I do not know, 20 cases out of 250 examinations, I think.

Senator FERGUSON. Do any courts adopt it as evidence?

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I had an opportunity to talk with Mr. Hoover yesterday afternoon in connection with another matter entirely, an entirely different subject, but I said to him, "Mr. Director, it has been reported you did not believe in the lie detector business. I can understand, it cannot be used in courts and I know some reasons for not using it."

Well, he said, "No, it is not infallible. We cannot use it as evidence, of course," and he said, "I do not know of a court where you can use it as evidence and so that in and of itself it is not evidence," and at that point he said, "I will give you an illustration"-off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

HE IS NOT A HOMOSEXUAL

Senator TAFT. Here, there is not any evidence, taking the lie detector, in place or in time or anything that suggests-if you asked, "Was there such an action at such a time"-there is no beginning point. That is why I would say that, in my opinion, he is not a homosexual. My own opinion is he is not. My own opinion is that there is no evidence.

Senator SPARK MAN. There is not even a suggestion in this association, necessarily. And this sixth sense person is a woman who did not like the way he acts, she thought he was effeminate. Even in these associations no one suggested there was anything wrong with him, but they just learned he had been associated with these people.

Senator TAFT. I would think perhaps the strongest case was this Russian, but he and his wife were just visiting from time to time, and no suggestion of other association. I could not see that there was anything.

Now, usually, in these things, as you know, they start and they get a favorite or something, and that sticks around for a long time, and I just could not see it here.

WHAT ABOUT THE TAPE RECORDING?

Senator FERGUSON. How about this tape recording, how come it. got out, that was mentioned, that tape recording? I mean, is there any suggestion as to how that got out?

Senator TAFT. Well, when I traced it back, it was the Washington police, his name was mentioned. I got it down to the question that there was a statement that everybody in the Moscow Embassy in 1933 and 1934 was homosexual.

Well, in the first place, I did not think that statement had any bearing. You have got 50 people there and just to say that because

a man said everybody was, I do not think that in itself is evidence, even if it was there, but we did not find it.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. This rumor was supposed to originate from the police department.

Senator TAFT. Yes, it came from Washington. There was this close cooperation or association, the police, the CIA, the State Department. they worked together and that is where it came from.

Senator FERGUSON. That is what I was wondering, how it got circulated.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sparkman, is there anything you want to add?

Senator SPARKMAN. No. I think Senator Taft has covered it adequately and I know nothing to add. I back up everything he said. I read it word for word and he read it word for word and we talked with Dulles and talked a couple of times with Brownell.

MR. HOOVER ASSUMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE SUMMARY

Senator TAFT. The only question I had was whether I should insist on seeing the raw file and finally I did not insist. I thought that under the circumstances and from examining it, to me the summary did have everything, and if Mr. Hoover himself assumed the responsibility for that, I thought I was justified in relying on that.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. He assumed responsibility for the prepara

tion of it.

Senator TAFT. He said he prepared it with special care because he had been advised that it had become extremely important and it contained every derogatory statement-and it did, not only this stuff. but, as I say, 10 pages of people who were just against him politically, which perhaps should not be classified as derogatory exactly, it is just a statement of difference in political thinking.

DID M'LEOD TALK TO M'CARTHY?

Senator FULBRIGHT. You did not see McLeod?
Senator TAFT. No.

Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, it looks like perhaps McLeod had been talking to people he should not have been talking to.

1

Senator TAFT. I do not think McLeod has talked to anybody. As far as I could get it, he did not like Dulles' decision and he told [Styles] Bridges or told somebody down there that he thought he ought to resign, that is the whole thing. I don't think he told anything, as far as any information McCarthy had or suggested he had, it did not come from McLeod in any way. I think it came from this police department story.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I have some reason to believe, I cannot verify it, I do not have anything, but I have some reason to believe that McLeod has never talked to McCarthy about this.

Senator TAFT. I know he has not.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. And he has been trying to get him to talk and McLeod has been hiding out in a cellar or some place.

1 Republican-New Hampshire.

Senator TAFT. McLeod went up to New Hampshire to visit his family, I will tell you that. He planned to go some time ago and he did, but he is back, maybe-I do not assert that he is still there.

Senator SPARKMAN. The statement on the floor indicated he knew there was a 16-page memorandum. How did he know that?

Senator TAFT. It was mentioned in the committee. Dulles mentioned it. If he did not here, he mentioned it to me, 16 pages and identified it.

THE SUMMARY WAS ADEQUATE

Senator FERGUSON. As I understand it in this summary you found no suggestions of contradictions that made you feel you wanted to see what the witness himself had said?

Senator TAFT. No, I did not, because the witness was quoted practically verbatim all the way through.

Senator FERGUSON. That is what I mean, it seemed like a reasonable summarization?

Senator TAFT. Yes, and the stuff on the family here that visited him was set out at great length, both the husband and the wife and "strange associations"-and that is what Dulles referred to when he talks about Hollywood, he said this fellow was with the "Voice of America" and he is on his way out now. As far as I am concerned, I would throw him out in a minute.

Senator FERGUSON. You do not think he ought to speak for America.

Senator SPARKMAN. He did an excellent job.

Senator KNOWLAND. That carries great weight with me, the statement Mr. Hoover made to Senator Taft, because no matter how conscientious a department might be in summarizing the files, they might, even supposing there might be some information, not cover it; but the fact that Hoover himself said that the FBI had summarized all this and the information was all there, even by inadvertence nothing was left out.

Senator SPARKMAN. He said he had gone to unusual lengths.

Senator TAFT. The State Department had given access to the State Department files. Whatever the State Department had was incorporated. Also, two other government departments were referred to, but he did not name them.

Senator TOBEY. Mr. Chairman, I want to say you showed fine judgment in the two men you selected, Senator Taft and Senator Sparkman, to go over there, and I certainly appreciate what they have done.

The CHAIRMAN. And I am sure that you express the sentiment of the entire committee. We feel that they exercised judgment.

A STATEMENT ON THE FLOOR

Senator TAFT. On the floor we are going to have to make a statement. I am not going to make it nearly as complete as this. I do not think I should, but I did want to make it for the committee so that you will know how to answer if people ask for more information.

Senator FERGUSON. I think it was a good thing to give it to the committee, otherwise there would be the feeling we could not answer it at all.

Senator TAFT. I do not think there is anything more you want to know about these people. I can remember a good deal about these different things. If there is anything you heard or anything else, I would be glad to answer.

Senator KNOWLAND. Might I ask, Mr. Chairman, what is going to become of this record that has been made here today?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, this is an executive hearing.

Senator FULBRIGHT. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

Senator TAFT. I might say that there is one other man and that is Phlager, consular department, and he is very strongly of the opinion there is no evidence. He backed Dulles 100 percent.

Senator SPARKMAN. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

Senator KNOWLAND. Mr. Chairman, do we have anything else? I left another committee that I was presiding over.

Senator TAFT. I do not think we need any action in this committee on this.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your question?

Senator KNOWLAND. I asked if there was any other business today because I left another meeting that I was presiding over, appropriations.

SHOULD THE COMMITTEE ACT?

Senator TAFT. Do you think this committee should act? We have not got it before us.

The CHAIRMAN. No, we have nothing before us.

Senator TAFT. We could simply state that in response to the request of some Senators, the committee met and received a report.

Senator FULBRIGHT. Might it not be helpful to say that we have heard your full statement and this committee unanimously accepts or approves this report, just so you can say that on the floor? Would that be helpful?

Senator TAFT. It is not necessary.

Senator KNOWLAND. I am inclined to believe that although we have already taken unanimous action, we have absentees and anything done now would be less than a full committee, and I am inclined to believe you might say that you have had a meeting and received a report to the committee.

Senator TAFT. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

[The committee next took up and ordered reported the nomination of Walter S. Robertson to be Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs. It adjourned at 11:55 a.m.]

MINUTES

TUESDAY, MARCH 31, 1953

UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met in executive session at 10:30 a.m. Present: Chairman Wiley, Senators Tobey, Ferguson, Knowland, Green, Mansfield.

The committee considered the nomination of John M. Allison of Nebraska, whose nomination as Ambassador to Japan was referred to the committee on March 6.

Mr. Allison was present and was introduced by Senator Griswold of Nebraska.

Following the testimony of Mr. Allison, the chairman informed the committee that a letter had been received from the Secretary of State advising of security clearance in connection with a number of appointments already confirmed by the Senate.

A letter from Director for Mutual Security Stassen, relating to the mutual security program was read by the chairman and it was agreed to hold preliminary meetings in April prior to the legislation for continuing the program being submitted to the Congress.

The nomination of Mr. Allison was ordered reported by voice vote. The chairman had the proxies of Senators Smith, Hickenlooper, and Langer.

For the record of proceedings, see official transcript.

The committee adjourned at 11:40 a.m.

(The chairman instructed that Senators not present, or those whose proxies he did not have, be contacted to ascertain how they wished to be recorded on the Allison nomination. Senators Taft and Humphrey asked that they be on record in favor. Senator George is out of the city as is Senator Gillette.)

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