REPORT BY AMBASSADOR LODGE; S. CON. RES. 27,

1

S. CON. RES. 32, RELATING TO DISARMAMENT 1

[Editor's note: S. Con. Res. 27 was introduced by Senator Jackson on May 1, 1953, S. Con. Res. 32 by Senator Flanders on June 3. Both resolutions, which addressed the question of achieving significant progress in disarmament through U.S. initiatives in the United Nations, were considered by a subcommittee appointed for the purpose. An original resolution, S. Res. 150, was approved by the Committee and reported to the Senate on July 24. This and an identical measure, S. Con. Res. 46, which was originated in order that the House might have opportunity to concur in the declaration, was approved by the Senate on July 29.]

THURSDAY, JULY 23, 1953

UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in the Foreign Relations Committee room, U.S. Capitol, Senator Alexander Wiley (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senator Wiley (chairman), Smith of New Jersey, Hickenlooper, Tobey, Langer, Green, Gillette, Humphrey, and Mansfield. Also present: Dr. Wilcox, Dr. Kalijarvi, Mr. Marcy, Mr. O'Day, and Mr. Holt, of the committee staff.

[The committee met at 2:30 p.m. in open session to hear U.N. Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge. Following this open session, the committee questioned Ambassador Lodge in executive session.] The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hickenlooper, you had a question.

THE BRITISH HAVE BEEN A ROADBLOCK IN KOREA

Mr. LODGE. I was going to respond to Senator Hickenlooper's question.

Senator Hickenlooper asked me about troops from the U.N.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. It was a little bit more than that, about the lip service and almost token troop support which we get in the Korean adventure and weakening of the moral unity between ourselves especially and the British, the French in the Korean adventure.

Mr. LODGE. All I can speak about is the troop situation. What happened in the last 2 years was that the Defense Department required all countries to provide logistic reimbursement in dollars and they made a few exceptions, but very few, and this has had the effect of preventing us from getting units from foreign countries that we could otherwise have gotten, and that has also

1 See Appendix F.

given members of the U.N. an excuse not to send troops, those who criticize us. That policy has now been actively changed so as to make it possible for us to accept troop contributions from other countries. I am very, very optimistic and encouraged, and I feel we will be able to get much, much more foreign troops than we have. Senator HICKENLOOPER. I guess I didn't make my question specific enough. Maybe this is out of your bailiwick. I do not want you to get into a field where your primary responsibility doesn't exist, but just frankly, the fact that the British have been a stumbling block that has kept us for over 2 years from winning the situation in Korea, held us in this stalemate situation, while they have troops operating back and forth, up and down Old Baldy, yet they are the ones that diplomatically, through the U.N. and otherwise, have just thrown roadblocks in the way of a realistic end to this thing. Mr. LODGE. By their trade with China?

Senator HICKENLOOPER. By their influence, by the position that they will not support an action beyond the 38th parallel. We can all have our own private ideas as to what the British are getting out of it or what they want.

Mr. LODGE. They are not the only ones who do not want to go beyond the 38th parallel.

I do not know about that.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I do not want to press you on that point. Mr. LODGE. That is a little bit outside my sphere.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wilcox gives me this news release. The Netherlands Parliament has just ratified the EDC 75 to 11.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Some of those billions of dollars are beginning to work.

TROUBLE WITH UNESCO

Mr. LODGE. Senator Humphrey spoke about UNESCO and about that agitation in Los Angeles. It is true that the agitation in Los Angeles was highly irrational, but it is also true that UNESCO, I do not think, has been terribly well-run. I think there is some great room for improvement there. I didn't want to say that in public. That is a thing that is very hard to get your hand on. It is one of the specialized agencies I find extremely baffling.

Senator SMITH. What is the thought with regard to UNESCO? What is thought of it? I heard a lot of adverse criticism. People say it ought to be abolished, it has nothing to do with the real objectives of the U.N.

Mr. LODGE. The purpose of creating good feeling among people is a good purpose. I do not see them in Paris. They have a committee set up by Congress to promote UNESCO. That was done by act of Congress, which is a very extraordinary thing to do. That committee goes around the place putting out press releases, some of which are not very judicious. They get out material about one flag and one world and one money and one this and one that, which irritates a lot of people, creates the impression that this thing is a world

1 On January 20, 1953, the Los Angeles Board of Education voted to abolish an educational program established within the Los Angeles school system under the sponsorship of UNESCO. This action capped a long emotional struggle between supporters and opponents of the program and drew national attention at a time when the United Nations was under heavy fire from many quarters.

government, which it isn't, and it generally raises hell. That is what happens.

Senator MANSFIELD. You have no control over Luther Evans? 1 Mr. LODGE. None whatsoever.

Senator MANSFIELD. That seems kind of odd because the State Department delegates a couple of second and third secretaries to work in UNESCO and as long as it is a subsidiary arm of the United Nations, the Ambassador to the United Nations should have some degree of control over what the American delegation does in that body as well as other bodies.

Mr. LODGE. It is not a subsidiary arm of the United Nations. The Secretary General cannot touch it. It is a law unto itself. It is like Mohammed's coffin, they just hang in the air.

OBSERVATIONS ON THE NEW SECRETARY GENERAL

Let me say this about the new Secretary General Hammarskjold. There was this one American woman who refused to fill out this form on loyalty. We wanted to have her dropped, and I went to him, and he dropped her like that. He has been very cooperative.

Senator TOBEY. How would you compare him to Trygve Lie? Mr. LODGE. Trygve Lie was a very brilliant sort of a man. Hammarskjold has a very even, stable disposition, while brilliant in his own right.

Senator TOBEY. He's much more of a democrat, isn't he, particularly in his treatment of individuals?

Mr. LODGE. He has very nice manners.

[Discussion off the record.]

DO WE WANT THE RUSSIANS IN THE UNITED NATIONS OR OUT?

Mr. LODGE. My answer as to whether I want the Russians in or outside the United Nations depends largely on how they get out. At the present time there is an advantage to us in having the Russians in. We can go to them. Vishinsky is a fellow who can be calmed along and be kidded along and say something violent from time to time. He is a very shrewd and clever debater by Soviet standards, but he is not at all shrewd by the standards here. He has said some very outlandish things at times.

So I think, on the whole, it advantageous for us to have them in, but, if they left, I think there would advantages we could get out of that. I wanted to tell you that. I obviously couldn't say that on the record.

That is all I have off the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

THE UNITING FOR PEACE RESOLUTION

Senator TOBEY. Could you explain that clause 2 with respect to action condemning an aggressor, the modus operandi of that?

1 Elected to be Director General of UNESCO on July 2, 1953.

The "Uniting for Peace" resolution, which made possible prompt consideration of acts of aggression by the General Assembly whenever the Security Council was prevented from acting, was adopted by the General Assembly on Nov. 2, 1950.

72-194 O-77-45

Mr. LODGE. That was evolved by Foster Dulles in 1950 when he was on the delegation. It provides that the General Assembly by a two-thirds vote can recommend that the nations join in condemning an aggressor and putting up the means to repel the aggression. That is what it is. Being in the General Assembly, it is a recommendation, whereas in the Security Council it is legally binding.

Senator GILLETTE. It is just an expression of opinion.

Mr. LODGE. It is a recommendation.

Senator GILLETTE. It is an expression translated into a recommendation, but goes no further than that.

Mr. LODGE. That is as far as it can go.

Senator GILLETTE. That is the limit of their authority.
Mr. LODGE. Yes.

ABOLITION OF THE VETO OPPOSED

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to tell us your own opinion with reference to abolishing the veto?

Mr. I ODGE. That would mean a Charter revision. I wouldn't want to abolish the veto on substantive questions. The veto has been abused on procedural questions. Here our great country, with more of the world's wealth than any other ocuntry, has only 6 percent of the world's population. We are not going to consent to representation on the basis of population. We are not going to agree to votes in which Luxembourg and Iceland each have one vote along with us. When it comes to the sending of troops, and life and death matters of that kind, I think we have to have a veto. I do. I think we have to have that.

DOES THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE A POSITION ON THE ADMISSION OF RED CHINA?

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Have we arrived at a determined position of the question of the admission of Red China in the United Nations, the present government? The policy announced a year or so ago was that we would not use the veto, considering it a procedural question. Mr. LODGE. I do not agree with Dean Acheson on that.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I am trying to press you on that. If the administration or State Department is not ready to take a position, all right. If you have taken a position and are ready to take a position, I would like to know what it is.

Mr. LODGE. I wouldn't want to talk about it on the record in public, but I will be glad to tell the committee what I think, which is that I do not think Dean Acheson was entirely correct when he said the question of representation is a procedural question. I would be prepared to use the veto in the Security Council if it got that far, but I do not think it will get that far. That vote we had in the Trusteeship Council a month ago that I just told you about, 10 to 1, with one abstention, is a pretty good vote. I think we can out-vote them all the way up and down the line. I have been conducting quite a canvass and I have made quite a nose count, and I think we stand pretty well. I say to you in confidence that, if it came to the point, I would use the veto in the Security Council.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURES AT THE UNITED NATIONS

Senator TOBEY. Where do these abstentions come from?
Mr. LODGE. They abstain all the time.

Senator TOBEY. Is that continental parliamentary procedure?

Mr. LODGE. Yes. It isn't a legislative body. It isn't a government. It doesn't have the power of a government. It has some of the outward appearances of a legislative body. It has some of the outward. appearances of a diplomatic conference. It isn't a simon pure diplomatic conference.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. You have no sanctions you can apply for someone who violates the rules.

Mr. LODGE. NO; it is what the members put in.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. The Senate can expel a member if the member violates its rules.

Mr. LODGE. This Government can tax, take a boy out of his home and put him in the Army. It is a powerful government. The U.N. is not only not powerful, but is not a government. It depends upon what the members put into it.

Senator TOBEY. What parliamentary procedures govern there? Mr. LODGE. They have temporary rules which have never been adopted on which we operate.

Senator HUMPHREY. But they work.

Mr. LODGE. They work pretty well. There are no interruptions. You do not yield. You have to wait until somebody is through which I do not like. I like to butt right in.

Senator HUMPHREY. That was done in Strasbourg.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. That is a continental custom in Europe. Mr. LODGE. They never would agree to that. They like to get instructions. They like to play it too cautiously for that.

WINNING FRIENDS FOR THE UNITED NATIONS

Senator GREEN. Did you expect to use this report which you read to us in any other way?

Mr. LODGE. This report I read today?

Senator GREEN. Yes.

Mr. LODGE. I may base a speech on it sometime.

Senator GREEN. I want to renew my suggestion that if you make it public, it would accomplish a great deal more good if you went into these other activities.

Mr. LODGE. I will.

Senator GREEN. There are a great many people who are interested in these other activities than interested in war and peace.

Mr. LODGE. You are quite right. If I have it printed in a pamphlet, I will put it in as an appendix.

Senator GREEN. More than that, a lot of people are interested in the U.N. because it is for the children or for economic advancement of the countries, things like that. Show what it does accomplish along those lines, which can be pointed to and win friends, because I think we want to win all the friends we can. There are a great many critics.

Mr. LODGE. I know it.