Mr. HALE. I think your statement is extreme, in a way. In the first place

Mr. KITCHIN (interposing). I am asking for your own opinion about it.

Mr. HALE. I am going to give it you. I believe any man whose career was interrupted, who went into the Army, whether he got across or whether he did not get across-I will concede the fact that there are many who did not get across, but it was not their fault.. Mr. KITCHIN. There is no difference between us on that.

Mr. HALE. You have asked me the question, and I say yes, they should.

Mr. KITCHIN. No; I did not ask you that. I asked you if those who did or did not get across but who came back or got out of the service strong, healthy, and uninjured should be taken care of and given a bonus before the Government has provided a comfortable living for those who were disabled and wounded?

Mr. HALE. You are putting me in a peculiar situation. I should say that the Government should take care of the men who were wounded and disabled, and they should take care of these men who now, in a transitory period, are not able to take care of themselves. Mr. KITCHIN. Should not the Government take care of the wounded and disabled men first?

Mr. HALE. They are taking care of them.

Mr. KITCHIN. If the Government had any money to spare that it could spend, under the present distressed financial conditions which I have described to you, do you not think the disabled fellow, the one-armed fellow, the one-legged fellow, the no-arm or no-leg or no-eyes fellow, or the fellow who is fatally diseased should have ample support given to him?

Mr. HALE. Certainly you should do that; you have done so.

Mr. KITCHIN. Do you really think, with the large indebtedness we have now and the excessively heavy taxes, that the Government is able to expend now $2,000,000,000 or $1,000,000,000 on the ablebodied, healthy, vigorous, unwounded man who offered his services to his country?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir, I do; and I believe if you will make an investigation similar to the one that ex-Secretary McAdoo made you will find that these large incomes can comfortably stand the additional taxation we are asking to be levied because Mr. McAdoo told the exact truth about it, and that is on file in the Internal Revenue Bureau.

Mr. KITCHIN. That just gets you a little more than $200,000,000. Mr. HALE. It would give us $200,000,000 a year.

Mr. KITCHIN. If we give you a bond you will sell it. If you put by gift $2,000,000,000 worth of bonds in the hands of millions of soldiers or other people they are going to sell those bonds and put them on the market at once. Those bonds and the bonds we have issued would not be worth 75 cents on the dollar.

Mr. HALE. That will be the men's own fault.

Mr. KITCHIN. It will be an evidence that the Government is financially embarrassed, that its credit is seriously impaired so far as its securities are concerned. Have you gentlemen thought about that?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir; we have. We have thought about it very seriously, and there are many crimes being committed in this country

in the name of economy to-day. This country can stand the increase of taxes—that is, the men on whom they would fall if this proposition is agreed to-and this country will stand it. It is a hardship to deny these men, and if you deny them you are committing a double crime. Mr. KITCHIN. I agree with you that the cry of economy by this Congress is almost a "crime" and that in the name of economy we have committed many "economic crimes." I agree with you that whatever bonus Congress grants should be raised by taxes on those most able to bear them.

By the way, Mr. Hale, have you admission fees in your organization?

Mr. HALE. Certainly; we could not exist without that.

Mr. KITCHIN. How much does one have to pay to belong to your organization?

Mr. HALE. That depends upon the post. Our post, which has grown to such a large membership that we have over 1,400 members, charges an initiation fee of $2 and membership dues of $3 a year. In the cases of the other posts, most of them charge $3 a year dues and $1 for initiation.

Mr. KITCHIN. And your organization has how many members? Mr. HALE. Somewhere between 500,000 and 750,000.

Mr. KITCHIN. You collect, say, about $750,000. Some of your members pay $2, some of them $3, and some $1, so you collect about $750,000. What do you do with that money, captain?

Mr. HALE. What do we do with it?

Mr. KITCHIN. Yes, what do you do with that money?

Mr. HALE. A dollar a year goes to headquarters, for the maintenance of national headquarters. But as far as the disposition of the money is concerned, if you are interested in that you should call the national officers of the organization before you. I did not think that the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States were on trial here as to anything of that sort.

Mr. KITCHIN. What position do you hold in the organization?

Mr. HALE. I am a member of the national legislative committee. My home is in Washington, D. C. But, Mr. Kitchin, what bearing has that on this duscussion in regard to soldiers' bonuses?

The CHAIRMAN. You can either answer the questions or refuse to answer them. The committee is trying to get information that will be of benefit to us in preparing some kind of a law that will aid the soldiers.

Mr. KITCHIN. In the course of your statement you seem to have reflected on Congress several times and on officers of the American Legion and on others, and I want to find out exactly your relation with your organization. Also I want to know in behalf of the committee about your organization, whether it is able to prosecute a propaganda throughout the country for a bonus, and I want to know where the funds come from, and whether the officers are collecting a dollar or two dollars a year from every one of the members, and what that is for. I am not criticizing you or your organization at all for assessing and collecting fees but we have a right to know whether such fees are being used for the purpose of propaganda.

Mr. HALE. Of the $3 that is collected from the members of each post, $2 goes to the local post and $1 goes to headquarters; and of the

$1 to national headquarters approximately 67 cents per member is consumed for the publication of our monthly magazine "Foreign Service," leaving a margin of 23 cents to support national headquarters.

Mr. KITCHIN. That is $750,000 to headquarters.

Considering the immense amount of work that you have done both here, in connection with your legislative committee, and your appeal before Members of Congress and before committees, it looks to me as if you ought to get more than your proportionate part of $1,000 out of this $750,000, and I am saying this in your interest.

Mr. HALE. I entertain the same opinion. It probably will be modified by the next convention.

Mr. KITCHIN. You must not misunderstand me. I think what you are doing is legitimate, and what your organization is doing is legitimate, but we want all the facts, and we want to unbosom ourselves to each other so that the members of this committee and Congress will have the whole thing before them. We propose to ask the American Legion these questions, and we propose to ask Mr. Sperry and his organization these questions.

We want you gentlemen to help us find a way to finance this big scheme that you have on hand and present to us.

Mr. YOUNG. How much do you think it would take to finance the Morgan bill?

Mr. HALE. I have no conception. It would depend entirely on the number of men who would apply.

Mr. YOUNG. Some have estimated it at $8,000,000,000, and I am told by gentlemen sitting by me that the estimates have run as high as $20,000,000,000.

Mr. HALE. The idea of the Morgan bill would be to work it along a line similar to the farm-loan proposition, and if it is not disturbing the finances of the country to handle the farm loans, through the Farm Loan Board, why should it disturb the finances of the country to put the Morgan bill into effect? Why could not the mortgages that the Government would take on the soldiers' land, and the supporting of them, be absorbed, as well as the mortgages assumed under the farm-loan proposition?

Mr. YOUNG. There would be this difference, I should think, that the plan upon which loans are now made on farms has worked out in such a way that they do not loan to a farmer more than any conservative old-line investment concern would loan, and that each farmer must come through with sufficient security of his own to support the loan.

Mr. HALE. I recognize that feature, and that is the reason I said that the Morgan bill should be modified, and the modification proposed was such that the Government should only loan so much as a competent appraisal would justify for a first mortgage, the second mortgage to be assumed by the original owner of the property to assist those who are not financially able to make an initial payment and not estop them from getting a home. If, under the farm loan act, a man had $1,000 he could put down himself and he bought a farm and the community or the association, whatever it may be, under the farm-loan act would justify loaning him $3,000 to buy the $4,000 farm, the $3,000 loan would be absorbed by the farm-loan bank, but he would have his own equity of $1,000. Under our plan,

in place of his equity, let the equity of the original owner remain there, the Government simply loaning $4,000.

Mr. YOUNG. You are proposing that the Government shall not loan in any case more than the property is good for?

Mr. HALE. That it is mortgageable for. I do not even ask for its total value, but simply what a reasonable mortgage would be.

Mr. HAWLEY. Would you follow the precedent of the farm-loan act in the provision that loans may be made not to exceed 50 per cent of the appraised value of the farm and 25 per cent of the appraised value of the improvements?

Mr. HALE. I should think so.

Mr. GREEN. Mr. Hale, as I understand it, your organization has been in existence for a long time?

Mr. HALE. Since 1899.

Mr. GREEN. But it does not take in soldiers of the Civil War? Mr. HALE. No, sir; it does not take in any soldier unless he has seen foreign service without the continental limits of the United States.

Mr. GREEN. Now, Mr. Hale, you have in your remarks very severely criticized Congress, and by inference criticized this committee because of inaction on these particular measures. That, of course, is your privilege as an American citizen, and the privilege of anybody, to criticize Congress. I am not complaining of that, only I would like to inquire what criticism you would think ought to be visited upon Congress in view of your remarks, for having done nothing of this kind for the soldiers of the Civil War, who, many of them, were in the Army for four years at $13 a month in depreciated currency. What ought Congress to do for them?

Mr. HALE. That is a matter for Congress to decide. I am not referring to Congress in connection with that matter or the inaction on the part of Congress regarding the Civil War veterans.

Mr. GREEN. You never have criticized Congress in that respect? Mr. HALE. No, sir.

Mr. GREEN. I might say also that the men who probably went in and fought for $13 a month came out when the cost of living was much higher than it is now.

Mr. GARNER. And their families had no allowance for the father or husband.

Mr. HAWLEY. Your organization includes veterans of all foreign wars?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAWLEY. In this proposition are you asking that the veterans of these wars other than the Great War may participate in the proposition?

Mr. HALE. No, sir; it is restricted entirely to the veterans of this

war.

Mr. HAWLEY. To the veterans of the recent war?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LONGWORTH. You have a membership of between 500,000 and 750,000?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LONGWORTH. What proportion are veterans of the late war? Mr. HALE. About 95 per cent, as near as I can get at it.

Mr. LONGWORTH. What are the qualifications for membership?

Mr. HALE. Any man who has been in the Army or naval service of the United States without the continental limits of the United States.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Your membership does not include women? Mr. HALE. No, sir; only men.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Are the members of the American Legion eligible for membership in your organization?

Mr. HALE. If they have seen foreign service.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Are any of them members?
Mr. HALE. Quite a few.

Mr. LONGWORTH. About how many?

Mr. HALE. I could not tell you. I could tell you about my own post. I know my junior vice commander is also a member of the American Legion. They are coming in very rapidly.

Mr. LONGWORTH. When you say actual military service you mean actual military service

Mr. HALE (interposing). Yes; outside the limits of the United States. Those men who remained on this side are ineligible.

Mr. LONGWORTH. They must have been mustered into the military service and received an honorable discharge?

Mr. HALE. Yes, si".

Mr. DICKINSON. Will you give me the name of your organization? Mr. HALE. The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States. The CHAIRMAN. Would you have this bonus apply only to such men as served overseas?

Mr. HALE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not represent the soldiers who were not overseas?

Mr. HALE. No, sir; but we are catholic in our legislative aims, as far as our legislation is concerned. We do not wish to disbar those who entered the service and who were potential soldiers for service on the other side. We believe they should share in this as well as those who went across.

Mr. LONGWORTH. You advocate two general propositions, one a bonus and one the provisions of the Morgan bill?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Do you consider those two as alternative propositions?

Mr. HALE. No, sir; we consider the bonus bill as of prime importance. If Congress can see its way clear at this session or the next session of Congress to do something along the line of the Morgan bill

Mr. LONGWORTH (interposing). What I mean is

Mr. HALE (interposing). I understand what you mean. alternative.

It is not

Mr. LONGWORTH. Would you allow a man to enjoy the privileges of both?

Mr. HALE. Yes.

Mr. LONGWORTH. You would pay him a bonus of $30 a month for his service, plus $100 if he served abroad?

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LONGWORTH. You do make that distinction?

Mr. HALE. We do make that distinction.

Mr. LONGWORTH. So your catholicity is not unlimited?