Mr. KENNAN. Yes. They do pay for what they get on regular trade. Senator HUMPHREY. Isn't it possible to step up that regular trade? Mr. KENNAN. I hope very much that it can be stepped up. I think the answer to their problem is increased trade and not aid. The CHAIRMAN. Not aid. Mr. KENNAN. But I think that-well, if you like I will tell you where we stand with aid. Senator HUMPHREY. Yes. LIQUIDATION OF ASSISTANCE Mr. KENNAN. At the time I came there last spring, we were giving these people surplus food, a technical assistance program, and making loans for long-term industrial development through private agencies. We were giving school lunches to about 70 percent of the Yugoslav school children, and through another private agency we were giving food parcels to all sorts of people, to pensioners who did not get more than a certain amount of pension, and what not. Well, today these private programs are in process of liquidation. Senator CAPEHART. What do you mean by private? Mr. KENNAN. Through CARE and Church World Service, the school lunch programs and this sort of thing. I do not see any reason why we should be doing this for them. They are a socialist state. They pride themselves on their social services, and they ought perfectly well to be able to feed their schoolchildren at noon. If they want to get another 10,000 or 20,000 tons of surplus grain to do this from us, I would rather do it that way than have us involved in it. These programs are going to be folded up. The technical assistance is going to be only on a nominal scale this year, and I have reserved the right myself, if things go through the way I hope they will in our Government, to make a study on this to decide whether they want it any more, I am not too enthusiastic about it. The surplus food I have, for the reasons I outlined before the committee a few moments ago, favored giving them a grant this year, and I shall probably do it next year because of the effects of the drought. I do not want to put this country in the position of exploiting a natural catastrophe and choosing a bad moment for cutting off this form of aid. U.S. LETS OTHERS SERVE OWN PURPOSES Senator CAPEHART. Mr. Ambassador, is it not a fact that we permit every other nation in the world to tell us what we should do and what we should not do, as they please, when it serves their own purpose to do it? Mr. KENNAN. I think I could not disagree with you on that, Sena tor. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Wiley would like to ask the Ambassador a question. APPRAISAL OF U.S. POLICY Senator WILEY. I can remember a few years ago when General [Walter Bedell] Smith-what was he, ambassador over there? Mr. KENNAN. He was Ambassador in the Soviet Union, sir. Senator WILEY. I asked him at that time about Tito. This was a matter I wanted to ask you. First, I want to get your idea as to what the condition of the Soviet Union is. What is the impact of Molotov," who came up with blood in his eyes, apparently going back south to handle things? What is the situation, in your judgment, in the Soviet Union? Before you answer that, General Smith said to me that, in his opinion, it was wise that we were doing what we were doing with Tito, that Tito was boss man down there, and that he was one fellow that spoke up to the Kremlin. I do not know anything about it. In other words, Tito was in a position geographically that, if war did come, would be a very significant piece of property that would not be in the hands of the Soviets; that through it they could dominate the Mediterranean, and so forth. I remember that distinctly. General Smith died a few months ago, but he was a pretty levelheaded fellow. Is it your idea that what we have been doing is because in our opinion it is in the best interests of preserving the peace, and that if we do not do something that we may precipitate a war or let the balloon go up there and precipitate war? Now, there are three or four questions in there. You can take them the way you want to. TERRITORY KEPT FROM SOVIET HANDS Mr. KENNAN. Well, I agree with what General Smith said. I think it has been, in general, a sound policy for us to try to keep this territory out of Soviet hands and keep it under the control of a government which, although it calls itself socialist, is at least not under Soviet domination. Senator WILEY. Have we done it? Mr. KENNAN. We have done it so far, and I think it is a good thing to try to see to it that Soviet-controlled arms are not in possession of this highly strategic territory. If they were in there again we would have them on the borders of Greece; we would have them on the borders of Italy. We would have them along the Adriatic Coast, and I think we are better off to have a state there which, even though it sounds RUSSIAN PRESENCE IN YUGOSLAVIA, OTHER NATIONS Senator CAPEHART. Are there any Soviet troops in Yugoslavia? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir. Senator CAPEHART. Are there any Russians of any kind? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir. There are far more Americans than Russians, and I am convinced that they would try to defend themselves if the Russians took after them. There is one thing that you cannot accuse the Yugoslavs of, and that is lack of courage. They are mountaineers, and they are as tough and game a people as any that exist in Europe, and they are wonderful fighters. Senator CAPEHART. But Russia does have troops and a lot of people in the other countries over there, like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Rumania? Mr. KENNAN. She has garrisons in several other satellite countries, not in all of them. That is, I do not believe there are officially Russian garrisons in Czechoslovakia. They may chisel on this, and there may be some Soviet units in there under special arrange ments. Senator CAPEHART. They do not need them in there; they are just as tough as the Russians. Mr. KENNAN. But they have troops in Hungary, Poland, and in Rumania I believe they have the right to have them. I think they have certain air and naval facilities in Bulgaria. I am not aware that they have garrisons of land forces in Bulgaria. I would have to look this up. ALBANIA'S BREAK WITH THE SOVIETS Senator CAPEHART. In Albania do they have any? Mr. KENNAN. They had a naval base in Albania. They withdrew it last April. They had a row with the Albanians when they withdrew, over whether they could withdraw all the submarines there, and the best information I have is that the Albanians insisted on keeping two of them. Senator HUMPHREY. But under Albanian control? Mr. KENNAN. They still have them, under Albanian control. The base has been evacuated by the Russians. So far as I am aware, and I made considerable efforts to run this down and find out, there are no Russians left at the base. I cannot find out, though, whether the Russians ever abandoned their legal claim to this base under the lease that they had. I cannot tell you that. Senator SYMINGTON. A submarine base? Mr. KENNAN. Submarine base. Senator SPARKMAN. Albania has broken diplomatic relations. Mr. KENNAN. They have broken with the Soviet Union very definitely. Senator SPARKMAN. So they would not recognize the claim now. Mr. KENNAN. It was in anticipation of this break that the Russians pulled their vessels out of there. RUSSIAN OVERTURES TOWARD YUGOSLAVIA Senator HUMPHREY. Do you think Mr. Khrushchev has made any success in his recent wooing of Yugoslavs? Mr. KENNAN. No. I think that the impediments to any overcoming of the break between the Yugoslavs and the Soviet Union cannot be overcome at the present time. You see, there are two possibilities there. If you try to talk about overcoming this break between the two countries, it could be over come on Khrushchev's terms or it could be overcome on Tito's terms. Tito's terms would be that they recognized his independence and his right to have his own path to socialism, as it is called, his own social system, which would be different from that of the Soviet Union. In my opinion, Khrushchev cannot grant this because if he did every other satellite country would want the same thing right away, and it would lead to the dissolution of the satellite area. Now, that is what would happen if the breach were to be healed on Tito's terms. If it were to be healed on Khrushchev's terms that is, that Yugoslavia would again accept the discipline of the bloc, why, this is something I cannot see Tito doing. The man has gone through the most tremendous risks and exertions for 14 years to establish this independence, and he has already let his system get very significantly different from that of the Soviet Union. If he were to come back on Khrushchev's terms, he would have to change the entire economic system in Yugoslavia, re-impose the Stalinist controls, and re-impose the complete nationalization of industry. It is my judgment he could not do this except at the cost of tremendous discontent and bewilderment in his own party. TITO'S SUCCESSION The CHAIRMAN. Who is going to be his successor? What do you predict now? Mr. KENNAN. He has two assistants, one of whom would be his successor. One is a man by the name of Kardelj, and the other is a man by the name of Rankovic. They are both old members of the Yugoslav party. 8 Like Tito, they were both at one time Communist Stalinists. I think they have learned a good deal. Kardelj is a man I have seen and talked to. He is what you might call a Marxist intellectual, but not a bad sort of a man; again, very decent and even charming in personal intercourse. Rankovic is the man who runs the police system. He is a much harder sort of man, and no theorist, and I do not believe he will take over the state, if it is possible. REACTION TO CUBAN SITUATION Senator CAPEHART. Let me ask you one question: What was the reaction to the Cuban situation over there? Mr. KENNAN. Extremely bad, that is, unfair to us, and violent. Senator CAPEHART. In what way? Mr. KENNAN. Violently against what we did and, I think, unjust. I would resent it again if it were to happen today. I would have resented it had I been there at that time. I had not arrived there when this occurred. Senator CAPEHART. The reaction was that we were all wrong? On the other hand, since that time the Yugoslavs have been trying to get on with their Cuban friends, and I have the impres *Edvard Kardelj and Aleksandar Rankovic, vice presidents of Yugoslavia. 48-688 0-86—2 sion they found it pretty difficult and they are rather fed up with these people themselves. So again, sometimes it is worth waiting to see how things work out. ATTRIBUTION OF AMERICAN ASSISTANCE Senator AIKEN. The government does not make any effort, does it, to prevent Yugoslav people from knowing that assistance comes from the United States? Mr. KENNAN. They have not been as forthcoming as I would have liked to have seen, and this is one reason why I am glad to see these private programs starting in the process of liquidation, which they are. Those are the private agencies like CARE and Church Service. I do not think they have given us enough credit for that. Senator AIKEN. Twelve years ago I think they honestly told their people, "We got the help from the United States," and they were quite conspicuous for that reason among the nations that got it. Mr. KENNAN. I must say this: Every time we sign a contract with them for surplus food, they have pictures taken of it, and they put it in the paper, and everyone in the country knows about it. Senator AIKEN. That is what I mean. Mr. KENNAN. And the people are well aware that a lot of their bread is coming from the United States. Senator AIKEN. Even so, some of these private agencies are giving aid to some countries over in that general area that never reaches the people at all. I do not think Yugoslavia is one of these. Mr. KENNAN. But I was not satisfied with the way the food was being distributed through the private agencies. I did not think we got enough credit for it. In fact, I found a lot of senior Yugoslav people who did not seem to know about it. PURCHASE OF BRAZILIAN NEWSPAPER Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Ambassador, are you aware of the fact that the Yugoslavs have purchased a large newspaper in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I do not know. Senator HUMPHREY. Well, they have. I cannot remember the name. I have the name of it. The CHAIRMAN. In Rio? Senator HUMPHREY. In Rio. The CHAIRMAN. The government bought it? Senator HUMPHREY. Yes; I just wondered if you have any indication of that. Senator AIKEN. I thought Brazil does not let them- Senator HUMPHREY. A private entrepreneur sold it to the govern ment. The CHAIRMAN. To the government? I never heard of that. Mr. KENNAN. I know they have been very much interested in what is going on down there. As a matter of fact, I have had, I would say, more trouble as Ambassdor in Yugoslavia over the activities of the Yugoslavs with regard to these unaligned nations than I have over their relations with the Soviet Union. |