I am quite satisfied about their relations with the Soviet Union. I know they cannot overcome this break. Senator AIKEN. Is that over-population that is prompting interest in Brazil, for instance? The CHAIRMAN. What is the explanation? Senator HUMPHREY. There is a large Yugoslav population in Brazil down in the Sao Paulo area. GREEK CONCERNS I talked with Prime Minister Karamanlis-- Senator HUMPHREY. Right after the election, I went over to his apartment one night and spent the evening with him, and he was very much concerned about our relationship with Yugoslavia. He told me very frankly that if I were to see you or to see the Secretary of State or anybody, how terribly important it was that our relationship be maintained on a most friendly basis. The CHAIRMAN. With Yugoslavia? Senator HUMPHREY. With Yugoslavia. They had a lot of trouble, of course, just prior to the elections with the Bulgarians near the frontier. This helped, by the way-he could not understand why it happened because it helped his government win an overwhelming victory and cut the Communist vote down very appreciably in Greece. Karamanlis expressed to me, No. 1, a very deep concern over our relationships with Yugoslavia, because some of these reports had indicated, on this airplane deal and others, problems with the Congress. Second, he told me, “I hope you are watching most carefully what is happening in Turkey," and this is my question. Have you seen Ray Hare lately? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I have not. Senator HUMPHREY. Do you get much information in Belgrade about what is happening in Turkey? Mr. KENNAN. Not reliable information. We get what is in the Yugoslav press. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by this? What are you getting at? [Discussion off the record.]" SINO-SOVIET RELATIONS The CHAIRMAN. This is a little off the subject, and I know it is getting late, but you are an old hand in this field. Would you very briefly give me your assessment of the present Soviet-Chinese relations? This is not quite in your line of business, but I know you are a student on this subject. I have asked you this before. What is your present view about it? Mr. KENNAN. Well, the break has gotten even deeper since I was at this table last time. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. KENNAN. And, in my opinion, it is going to be practically impossible to overcome it now. *No transcript was made of "off the record" discussions. sion they found it pretty difficult and they are rath. these people themselves. So again, sometimes it is w see how things work out. ATTRIBUTION OF AMERICAN ASSISTANCE Senator AIKEN. The government does not make it, to prevent Yugoslav people from knowing that from the United States? Mr. KENNAN. They have not been as forthcon have liked to have seen, and this is one reason w see these private programs starting in the proces which they are. Those are the private agencies Church Service. I do not think they have given us that. Senator AIKEN. Twelve years ago I think they ho. people, "We got the help from the United States, quite conspicuous for that reason among the nation Mr. KENNAN. I must say this: Every time we sig them for surplus food, they have pictures taken o it in the paper, and everyone in the country know Senator AIKEN. That is what I mean. Mr. KENNAN. And the people are well aware t bread is coming from the United States. Senator AIKEN. Even so, some of these priv giving aid to some countries over in that gener reaches the people at all. I do not think Yugosla Mr. KENNAN. But I was not satisfied with the being distributed through the private agencies. got enough credit for it. In fact, I found a lot people who did not seem to know about it. PURCHASE OF BRAZILIAN NEWSPA! Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Ambassador, are yo that the Yugoslavs have purchased a large news neiro in Brazil? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I do not know. Senator HUMPHREY. Well, they have. I car name. I have the name of it. The CHAIRMAN. In Rio? Senator HUMPHREY. In Rio. The CHAIRMAN. The government bought it? Senator HUMPHREY. Yes; I just wondered if y tion of that. Senator AIKEN. I thought Brazil does not let t Senator HUMPHREY. A private entrepreneur s ment. The CHAIRMAN. To the government? I never h Mr. KENNAN. I know they have been very what is going on down there. As a matter of would say, more trouble as Ambassdor in Yug tivities of the Yugoslavs with regard to these than I have over their relations with the Soviet I am quite satisfied about their relations with the Soviet Union. I know they cannot overcome this break. Senator AIKEN. Is that over-population that is prompting interest in Brazil, for instance? The CHAIRMAN. What is the explanation? Senator HUMPHREY. There is a large Yugoslav population in Brazil down in the Sao Paulo area. GREEK CONCERNS I talked with Prime Minister Karamanlis- Senator HUMPHREY. Right after the election, I went over to his apartment one night and spent the evening with him, and he was very much concerned about our relationship with Yugoslavia. He told me very frankly that if I were to see you or to see the Secretary of State or anybody, how terribly important it was that our relationship be maintained on a most friendly basis. The CHAIRMAN. With Yugoslavia? Senator HUMPHREY. With Yugoslavia. They had a lot of trouble, of course, just prior to the elections with the Bulgarians near the frontier. This helped, by the way-he could not understand why it happened because it helped his government win an overwhelming victory and cut the Communist vote down very appreciably in Greece. Karamanlis expressed to me, No. 1, a very deep concern over our relationships with Yugoslavia, because some of these reports had indicated, on this airplane deal and others, problems with the Congress. Second, he told me, “I hope you are watching most carefully what is happening in Turkey," and this is my question. Have you seen Ray Hare lately? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I have not. Senator HUMPHREY. Do you get much information in Belgrade about what is happening in Turkey? Mr. KENNAN. Not reliable information. We get what is in the Yugoslav press. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by this? What are you getting at? [Discussion off the record.]9 SINO-SOVIET RELATIONS The CHAIRMAN. This is a little off the subject, and I know it is getting late, but you are an old hand in this field. Would you very briefly give me your assessment of the present Soviet-Chinese relations? This is not quite in your line of business, but I know you are a student on this subject. I have asked you this before. What is your present view about it? Mr. KENNAN. Well, the break has gotten even deeper since I was at this table last time. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. KENNAN. And, in my opinion, it is going to be practically impossible to overcome it now. "No transcript was made of "off the record" discussions. The CHAIRMAN. Do you visualize this becoming somewhat similar to the relationship between Tito and Russia? Mr. KENNAN. Yes, although it will have different aspects because these are both two great countries, and the Chinese are not the same as the Yugoslavs. But it is going to be that sort of a break, I think, eventually. U.S. ROLE IN MATTER The CHAIRMAN. Is there any thing we can do to encourage or promote this break? Mr. KENNAN. I think the less we insert ourselves into this, and the more we keep our mouths shut— The CHAIRMAN. That is good advice. Mr. KENNAN [continuing]. The greater the break will become. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I want to know. In other words, we ought not to talk about it, say much more about it, is this right? Mr. KENNAN. Yes. The less we crow over it—— The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean. Mr. KENNAN [continuing]. The better it will be from our standpoint. Senator SPARKMAN. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know, your judgment on that. But it is a serious doctrinal difference, is that right? Mr. KENNAN. Oh, extremely serious. The CHAIRMAN. Is it? Mr. KENNAN. Yes, sir; and it is also a power contest in the good old-fashioned sense between two great neighboring nations who have rival ambitions throughout Asia. Senator AIKEN. Will the time ever come when Russia might enlist our aid against the Chinese? Mr. KENNAN. In certain ways I think they would already like to have it, but they do not know how to ask for it. YUGOSLAVIA IS WORTH A STRUGGLE Senator, now that I have heard these questions around the table, there is one thing I would like to say in amplification of the remarks I made just at the beginning. The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. Mr. KENNAN. And that is this: that the Yugoslavs are not an easy problem for us. There is a great deal there which is irritating that goes on in Yugoslavia. There are many things that happen there that are a burden on our relations, are hard for an ambassador to take. But after 8 months there, I come away with a conviction which, I believe, was shared by every one of my predecessors there, without exception, namely, that it is worthwhile continuing the struggle for these people's respect, and I would not say for their affections because I do not believe in affection in international affairs, but the struggle for their orientation. I do not think we can bring them entirely over to the Western side in the sense that the members of NATO are part of the Western camp. But I think that, by and large, the direction of development over the last years has been in our favor, and that for this reason it is worth being patient, not being submissive. I do not mean that. EXTREME STATEMENTS NO REASON TO GIVE UP I feel that it is very essential to tell them where you disagree with them, and to hold them to their responsibilities for moderation and accuracy of statement, to keep after them in this way, and to argue with them. I believe I have done that as much as any ambassador in Belgrade since I have been there. But I do want to emphasize we do not-we should not give up the fight. We should not resign them to the opposite camp just because they irritate us with their statements, you see. Many Americans, if I take the temper of this country, have gotten so irritated by these statements, and fed up, that they say, "Well, let's wash our hands of them and tell them that if they want to, to go back to Moscow." I do not agree with this. Senator AIKEN. Have those statements made by Tito been made by others than himself? Mr. KENNAN. The statements made by other people have been much more moderate and, quite frankly, I have not talked to a single senior Yugoslav who has not tried to intimate to me that he was sorry such extreme things were said, and felt that we should not get too excited about it. So I feel we have something to hang onto. NO COUNTRY IS IRREVOCABLY COMMUNIST The CHAIRMAN. What you are saying is in complete accord with what the President said this morning. We should never give up. Senator HUMPHREY. Exactly. The CHAIRMAN. That any country is not irrevocably an enemy and a Communist, they are worth worrying about, is that not correct? Mr. KENNAN. This is true, and the position we have there today is vastly preferable to what it would be if this were still under Soviet control. I do not think we should forfeit this by getting petulant or reacting emotionally to things. Now, this does not mean tolerating without objection outrageous statements on their part. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. KENNAN. And I do not believe this for a minute. I believe in going right back at them every time they say anything we think we can take exception to and making it a matter of record, why we think they are wrong, and keeping after this. AID IS NOT SO IMPORTANT But I would not give up the struggle, and I do not think aid is so important here. The Yugoslavs themselves, as proud people, do not want to take this any longer than they have to. The CHAIRMAN. Are they getting along pretty well? Mr. KENNAN. Fairly well. They have troubles this year by virtue mostly of the drought, but they do not want to take any, any longer than they have to. |