We would welcome a suggestion from you as the new head, and we hope in the new era here, to see if we cannot get a more satisfactory relationship.

I am not the only one, as I say. There are a great many. There were 35 sponsors to Senator Mansfield's resolution. I do not think there are quite that many to the McCarthy resolution, but it would appear to be in the neighborhood of 15 or 20. With this big an operation, you can see that it is going to continue to be troublesome, I think.

A REGULAR RELATIONSHIP WITH CIA

Mr. MCCONE. I would like to think this thing over. I think this has been a very useful discussion, and I welcome an opportunity to talk it over further with you.

I feel that the concept of the joint committee, for reasons I have expressed, would compound rather than tend to straighten out the problem.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be.

Mr. MCCONE. On the other hand, I do not think it beyond the realm of possibility to develop an arrangement which would meet your problem, which I can see is a real one, and one that cannot be left unnoticed.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that the-go ahead.

Mr. MCCONE. So far as I am concerned as Director of Central Intelligence, which has to do with the entire intelligence community and giving it guidance as well as the direction of the Agency itself, I have a great responsibility to this committee. I think.

The CHAIRMAN. It has not been easy for this committee to get, I would say, any regular relationship with the CIA. Your predecessor took the view that he had no responsibility to this committee, and it is my understanding he never would appear without clearance of the Subcommittee of Armed Services, which, under the law, has no particular jurisdiction.

As I understand it, under the law you report only to NSC. You are a creature of the NSC under the law, are you not?

Mr. MCCONE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. This other business is purely informal, casual, if you like, as far as speaking legally, is that not correct?

Mr. WARNER. That is right, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. If things go wrong we have the responsibility in the eyes of the public, whether we have anything to do with it or not, as we have very recently experienced in that connection.

The kind of information which you are equipped to develop, of course, is extremely important to any judgment of any of these policies that we have, the kind of judgment which is presently under consideration in Southeast Asia, which is very important. They are going to ask us to pass upon authorizations, and so on, and we can do it only by doing it completely in the dark or very much in the dark, if we do not have any――

BOARD OF NATIONAL ESTIMATES

Mr. MCCONE. I think information in the Agency, both from our own sources and then from the responsibility of gathering together

and evaluating intelligence from the entire community, and finally in the preparation of estimates is done by the Board of National Estimates, and that is all very vital to your committee.

The CHAIRMAN. The Board of National Estimates, that is made up of what?

Mr. MCCONE. That is made up of 12 very senior people.
The CHAIRMAN. But that is your shop?

Mr. MCCONE. That is part of the Central Intelligence Agency. It is really a facility of mine as Director of Central Intelligence.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research have independent existence now under the planning functions or is it part of your shop?

Mr. MCCONE. No, it is independent, as it always has been.
The CHAIRMAN. Does it amount to much?

Mr. MCCONE. Yes, it does. It has a very capable fellow running it, Roger Hillsman, a very able fellow.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know him.

Mr. MCCONE. He sits on the U.S. Intelligence Board. They receive and evaluate intelligence that comes through their sources, through their embassy sources and so forth, and feed their evaluations into our Office of Current Intelligence and our Board of National Estimates.

PARTICIPATION BY THE CIVILIAN ARM

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me only common sense that if only the military committees-and all committees, I suppose, human nature being what it is—become oriented to their particular responsibilities, what you really have is primarily a military policymaking agency here, which ought not to be. It ought to be at least partially participated in by, we will call it, the civilian arm of the Government.

Mr. MCCONE. I cannot disagree with that at all. I can readily see the problem. But the very thing you said, the committees get oriented to their particular mission, is the reason why I think a joint committee oriented to the intelligence function would make your life more complicated than it is now, in my opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. I surely do not want to get it any more complicated than it is now.

Mr. MCCONE. I think there is a better solution.

The CHAIRMAN. I think then what we ought to do is you pray over it and see it you can come up with a good solution. Mr. MCCONE. Fine.

PRESIDENTIAL REVIEW BOARD

The CHAIRMAN. Did this new Board that was set up to review the CIA, by the President-under General Maxwell Taylor, I believehave anything to say about this? I have never seen a report on that. They were set up last year, weren't they?

Senator SPARKMAN. Last fall.

The CHAIRMAN. Last fall, and they were supposed to review the whole operation and make a report to the President.

Mr. MCCONE. They really devoted themselves more to the Cuban operation.

48-688 0-86-10

The CHAIRMAN. Just to the Cuban operation?

Mr. MCCONE. That Board was made up of Maxwell Taylor, Robert Kennedy, Admiral Burke and Allen Dulles. They rendered a report that I have seen.

The CHAIRMAN. They did not consider this sort of problem at all? Mr. MCCONE. No; they had some recommendations of corrections that should be made within the Agency, which I have taken into consideration, but they did not deal with this problem.

The CHAIRMAN. I hope you will give it some thought and with your colleagues and the others, I would like to pursue it at a later date, after you have had a chance to think about it.

Mr. MCCONE. I would like to very much.

MCCARTHY'S RESOLUTION

The CHAIRMAN. Every now and then Senator McCarthy says, "when are you are going to have hearings on my resolution?" We never have had any, but maybe with some solution better than that which could be found, we might have. It seems, I confess, that your own Joint Atomic Energy Committee was the reason, because of its success, why I thought that was the proper way. If there is a better way, as I say, I do not want to complicate my life any more than it is, if you think that it would-▬

Mr. MCCONE. I think you have to examine whether the conditions are exactly parallel, because the Atomic Energy Commission in its activities in its own field has little to do with any other field, and by the wording of the law, the military control the military applications, and it is all pretty clearly worked out. Nothing that they do, or nothing that the Commission does, affects what you do or what the Armed Services Committee does.

All the time that I was the Chairman of the Commission, I never appeared before this committee, nor did I appear before the Armed Services Committee. But here in the Agency it is quite different. It affects the affairs of your committee and of the Armed Services Committee, and therefore I question whether you are answering the problem that you propound by contemplating the creation of a third committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you could be right. I do not know whether that is the answer or not. It certainly does affect this committee, I mean its policies.

[Deleted.]

The CHAIRMAN. Which would mean that you would be subject to the State Department?

Mr. MCCONE. That is right, that is right, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. MCCONE. Thank you.

[Whereupon, at 6:10 p.m., the committee adjourned, subject to call of the Chair.]

MINUTES

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 7, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICAN AFFAIRS,

COMMITTEE ON Foreign RelATIONS,

Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met in executive session at 3 p.m., in room F-53, Capitol.

Present: Senator Gore (subcommittee chairman) and Senator Dodd.

G. Mennen Williams, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, and others briefed the committee on the Congo situation. For record of the proceedings, see the official transcript. [The subcommittee adjourned at 4:55 p.m.]

(281)

MINUTES

THURSDAY, MARCH 8, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,
Washington, DC.

The committee met in executive session at 2 p.m., in room F-53, Capitol.

Present: Senator Sparkman (acting chairman), and Senators Humphrey, Mansfield, Long, Gore, Lausche, Symington, Hickenlooper, Aiken, and Capehart.

The committee resumed its mark-up of the bill (S. 2768) To promote the foreign policy of the United States by authorizing the purchase of United Nations bonds.

The bill was amended as to text. After discussion, and on a declaration of the Chair, the bill was ordered reported, without objection, but with Senator Capehart announced as opposed.

For record of the proceedings, see the official transcript. [The committee adjourned at 3:40 p.m.]

(282)