1009 Admission to the Universities- {APRIL 21}

Petition to lie on the Table,

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, April 21, 1834.
MINUTES.] Bill, Read a second time:-Tonnage of

Vessels.

Petitions presented. By Lord ALTHORP, from several Places;

and by Mr. HODGES, from Cranbrook, and other Places,

for Relief to the Dissenters; from Bethersden, in favour of a Tithes Commutation.-By Mr. JACOB, from Galway, GOULBURN, from the University of Cambridge, against

and other Places, for the Repeal of the Union.-By Mr.

the Bill for the admission of Dissenters to the Universities.

-By Mr. WOLRYCHE WHITMORE, from Wolverhampton, for the Remission of the Sentence on the Six Agricultural

Labourers at Dorchester.-By Mr. LANGDALE, from

METHUEN, from the County of Wilts, and a Number of

Beverley, against the General Register Bill.-By Mr. Places, against any Alteration in the Corn Laws.-By Mr. FENTON, from Rochdale, for the Abolition of the Corn Laws, Reduction of the Interest of the Debt, and of Public Salaries.— By Sir THOMAS TROUBRIDGE and Mr. for Exempting Merchant-Seamen from paying Sixpence to Greenwich Hospital.-By Mr. SLANEY, from Draytonin-Hales, for a Clause in the County Coroner's Bill.-By Mr. FENTON, from Kinloss, in favour of the Connexion between Church and State.-By Mr. SLANEY and Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, from several Places,--for an Alter

INGHAM, from Margate, Ramsgate, and South Shields,

Cambridge Petition.

1010

the laws of the Universities were made, and he should feel greater satisfaction should the Dissenters look for the remedy. if the petitions which emanated from the He should be most willing to see the Col- University were subscribed only in its lege of Physicians give degrees in medi- corporate capacity, instead of conveying cine. His noble and learned friend was the private opinions of individual memunder a mistake respecting Sir Isaac bers of that body to that House. While, Newton; he was admitted in 1660, and however, he regretted this departure from took his degree in 1664, and subscribed the rule which had been hitherto observed, the Thirty-nine Articles. he must admit, that the present petitioners had been guilty of a breach of that rule, and came before the House in their individual capacities, for the purpose of stating the opinions they entertained upon a matter deeply interesting to the prosperity of the University. Had they remained would have been guilty of a highly silent on this important occasion, they criminal neglect of moral and religious duty to the interests they were bound to protect, as well as of the duty they owed since a petition had been presented to to that House. A short time had elapsed both Houses of Parliament, signed by most respectable members of the University imploring the House to interfere, for the purpose of relieving certain individuals from a subscription which had been heretofore required from all persons taking degrees at the University, and which had the effect of confining them to the members of the Established Church. Great weight had been attached to the petition which had been presented on a former Occasion by the right hon. Gentleman, the member for the town of Cambridge, as well as by other hon. Members, who, on that foundation, had rested legislative measures, which had already been proposed to Parliament, and would shortly that House had received an expression of come under discussion. Since, therefore, the opinion entertained by a certain part of the resident members of the University, and since the opinion of Parliament had Westmeath,-against the Repeal of the Union. ADMISSION TO THE UNIVERSITIES-contained in that petition, it became inbeen greatly influenced by the sentiments CAMBRIDGE PETITION.] Mr. Goulburn said, that, in presenting the Petition of 259 resident members of the University of Cambridge, he stood in a somewhat novel situation, in being called upon to present a petition, expressing what he believed to be the sentiments of that learned body, which he had the honour to represent, but proceeding from that body not in its corporate capacity. He deeply regretted the necessity which had given rise to the change which had taken place in the established practice of the University;

ation in the present System of Church Patronage in
Scotland.-By Sir RICHARD SIMEON, Sir ANDREW AG-
NEW, and Messrs. BAINES, Barnard, InghaM, SLANEY,
Goulburn, Mackenzie, FINCH, W. WHITMORE, and

Sir THOMAS WINNINGTON, from a Number of Places,——

for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.-By Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, Mr. EDWARD RUTHVEN, Mr. O'BRIEN,

and Mr. JACOB, from several Places,-against Tithes.

By Messrs. C. FITZSIMON, JACOB, HENRY GRATTAN,

and EDWARD RUTHVEN, from a great Number of Places, --for the Repeal of the Union. By Lord DARLINGTON, and Messrs. WILKS, FENTON, INGHAM, BAINES, HAWES Places,—in favour of Relief to the Dissenters.-By Mr. FELLOWES, and Colonel CONOLLY, from Enniscorthy and

METHUEN, and BARNARD, from a great Number of

cumbent on the large majority of the University who dissented from that opinion, and who considered that such an opinion would overturn the moral and religious discipline of the University, to state to the House the views they entertained on the subject. It became still more their duty, when it was recollected, that it had been stated to the House, that a member of the Caput possessed the power of putting a veto on any petition of which that individual member disapproved, and that such a power had been exercised. The petition

1011 Admission to the Universities. {COMMONS}

The right hon. Gentleman maintained, that, by the statute of Elizabeth, it was required, that the Holy Communion should be administered on the first day of each term, and that all the When such a provischolars and sizars of the University were required to attend.

he then held in his hand was, in every | both in mathematical and classical knowway, highly respectable, and was eminently ledge, on a par with those entertaining entitled to the serious consideration of different opinions, who had placed their that House. It was signed, as he stated names to the other petition. He would before, by 259 individuals belonging to not trouble the House with an enumeration the University, who had assembled at of names, but would simply add, that the Cambridge on Wednesday last; and of number of wranglers' names attached to that number there were 120 persons per- the present petition was sixty-nine; the manently resident at the University, and number of the signatures of Smith's prize who were personally engaged in conduct- men was very great; and a number of ing the course of education there. He persons, who had attained the highest would, in one respect, imitate the course classical honours, had also signed it. The pursued by the right hon. Gentleman hour of the day admonished him that he opposite (Mr. Spring Rice), who had pre- had no time to dwell further on the sented the former petition, and analyze qualities, attainments, and number of the signatures of the petition he held in persons who had signed the petition. The his hand. To that, then, were attached right hon. Gentleman proceeded to dethe signatures of no less than eleven scribe the contents of the petition, which Heads of Colleges; one, who had signed deprecated, in strong terms, the abrogaAll tion of all religious tests as a criterion of the previous petition, being wanted. the Masters, also, of the three largest sound knowledge; and declared, that to Colleges in the University,-of St. John's, bestow degrees without such tests, would Trinity, and Queen's, had signed the ruin the University as a place for religious present petition; only two had signed the education. petition opposed to it, and they belonged to the small Colleges. If the number of persons were compared who came under the management of the Heads of Colleges and others, who signed both petitions, the discrepancy in point of numbers would be found to be so great, that it would diminish, almost to nothing, the value of the testimony brought forward by With rethe petition on the other side. spect to the signatures of Professors, he had to mention, that to this petition were annexed the signatures of seven Prowere fessors; and among these seven comprised all the Professors of Divinity in the University. In mentioning Professors, he begged to add, that Professor Scolefield, who was Regius Professor of Divinity, had not signed in person the present petition, because he was the only Professor of the eleven absent when it was signed. That Professor had been called away by an unfortunate calamity, and he had deputed a friend to sign the petition for him. With respect to persons engaged in tuition, since they had been alluded to on a former occasion, he would also now allude to them. The former petition was signed by eleven persons connected with tuition; the present was signed by thirty-one tutors of the University. As far as learning and attainments went, he felt confident it would be found, that the persons whose names were affixed to the present petition were perfectly,

sion was established by Act of Parliament,
it was impossible to believe, that the law
intended Dissenters to be admitted into
the Universities; for, if the law had so
intended, it would never have made pro-
visions for enforcing the receiving of the
Sacrament, according to the forms of the
Church of England, on all the students.
He hoped that, on another occasion, he
should have more time to enlarge upon
the subject, and would then conclude by
moving, that the petition be received.
It being three o'clock, the Speaker
The debate was adjourned.
rose.

The House, on
CHURCH RATES.]
the Motion of Lord Althorp, went into a
Committee on Church-rates.

Lord Althorp said, that he had taken the opportunity, prior to entering into the ensuing discussion, to present the different petitions which had been committed to his care by several bodies of Dissenters, praying for relief from the peculiar burthens which had been imposed upon them, in order that the petition for redress, and the measures of relief, might come before the consideration of the House as nearly together as possible. He considered that

to continue Church-rates as at present, but to exempt Dissenters from the payment of them. As far as the Dissenters were concerned, this would, of course, satisfy them; but it would be detrimental in the highest degree to the interests of the Established Church. If any person could

the Dissenters were perfectly justified in bringing forward the detail of their grievances at this particular juncture, on this particular point, inasmuch as he thought, that there was a great difference, in point of principle, between the payment, by Dissenters, of tithes and Church-rates. Church-rate was a tax laid on at the dis-exempt himself from the payment of cretion of others, as far as regarded its Church-rates by saying he was a Dissenter, amount; and the Dissenters, who were he apprehended that the number of Discompelled to pay it, felt, that they were senters would be greatly and rapidly incompelled to pay for the administration of creased. For this reason, he could not worship under a system they did not ap- prevail upon himself to bring forward a prove. For this reason, in his opinion, proposition contrary, as he thought, to the the Dissenters had a right to complain of plain principles of justice. Another proit; and he thought, further, that the Le- position was that of the hon. member for gislature was bound so far to relieve them. Exeter, which was to abolish ChurchBut while the system of Church-rates, as rates, and to substitute nothing for them, the law stood at present, was grievous to leaving the money necessary for upholding Dissenters, it could not be, in any way, and repairing churches to be raised by satisfactory to the members of the Es- voluntary contributions. Those voluntary tablishment. The payment of Church- contributions might, or might not, be sufrates had been refused in different parishes; ficient-in some cases no doubt they and the remedy given to the Church had would be sufficient, but he was far from not been found sufficient to enforce the certain that this would generally be the demand. For these reasons it seemed to case. While the Dissenters had a right him, that the Legislature was called upon to call upon the Legislature not to require to adopt some measure, not only to remove them to pay money for a Church which the grievances of the Dissenters, but to was contrary to their principles, the memplace the maintenance of parochial bers of the Establishment had a right churches and chapels on a better footing. also to say, that their interests should reDifferent measures had been suggested for ceive all due attention, and that their that purpose. The first was the recom- principles should be respected. One of mendation from the Ecclesiastical Com- those principles certainly wasone of missioners, which, however, did not profess, the consequences of having an Established in any way, to remedy the grievances of Church was-that means should be provided the Dissenters. The sole object of it was, by the Legislature for the support of the to adopt such a course as would give a fabric of the Church. On these accounts more easy and effectual mode of collecting he could not concur entirely in any of the Church-rates. The adoption, therefore, plans to which he had alluded. In the of that proposition would not effect, at course of the discussion, he believed, of least, one of the objects he had in view. the Motion of the hon. member for ExAnother proposition took a middle course; eter, statements were made, which he was and whereas the main expenditure of the happy to find concurred very much with rates had been upon the internal decora- the principles of the plan he was about to tion of the Church, in future to provide in have the honour to propose. The hon. this method merely for the maintenance of member for Boston (Mr. Wilks), who the fabric, while other means were found might be considered to speak the sentito pay for necessary decorations in the ments of the Dissenters, said, that it was performance of the service. It had been not the amount, but the principle to which constantly stated in Parliament, by those they objected; and he defined that prinwho advocated the cause of the Dissenters, ciple to be, the compulsory payment of a that it was not so much the amount of tax for the express and immediate purwhich they complained as the principle of pose of supporting the Established compulsion. This second plan, therefore, Church. In the same debate the hon. though it might diminish greatly the sum Member for Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) raised by Church-rates, would not satisfy had stated that, in his opinion, it was the object. Another proposition, which essential that the Legislature should prowould certainly satisfy the object, was, vide certain funds for the support of the

churches of the Establishment. It had the rector, or the lay impropriator, in conbeen very satisfactory to him (Lord sideration of the great tithes, was bound Althorp) to hear these statements from to maintain and repair the chancel. It hon. Gentlemen so well informed upon was the intention of Ministers to relieve their different sides of the question, be- him from this charge by placing the cause he was desirous, that the plan of chancel on the same footing as the main Government he should have the honour fabric of the Church. But while he was to propose should be in accordance with relieved from this burthen, it was intended both those suggestions. The plan he had to impose upon him the duty of providing to propose was, that Church-rates should all that was absolutely necessary for the be entirely abolished, and that in lieu of performance of divine service. The amount them the sum of 250,000l. should be an- of these necessaries would not be great; nually charged upon the Land-tax, to be and in making this alteration he did not applied in the manner he would state think that the Rector, or lay impropriator, ["No no!"]. The hon. Member said, would be placed in a worse situation than "No, no!" but he would endeavour to at present. In this way he apprehended show, that his proposition ought to be he should be enabled to provide for all adopted. The mode in which he sug- those expenses at present paid out of the gested, that the sum should be expended Church-rates. Upon the sum to be paid was not that it should be applied to all into the hands of the Commissioners purposes to which Church-rates were now would be charged the maintenance of the applicable, but merely to the maintenance fabric of the Church, the repair of the and support of the parish churches and chancel, and of the fences of the Churchchapels. For this purpose he would pay yard. The articles to be provided by the that sum into the hands of the Commis- Rector, or lay impropriator, he need not sioners for building churches,—a body now enumerate; they would be contained in existing only under a temporary Act, but a schedule to the Act he should introwhom it would hereafter be necessary to duce; and he did not think that the burrender permanent. Under their direction then would be found onerous. Other

to-such as the support and preservation of the pews in parish churches and parochial chapels; and he thought it would not interfere with the proposed arrangement, if he made those who used them, also keep them in repair. He was informed that such was, at present, the law with respect to what were called faculty and possessory pews; and if it were the law with respect to the rest so much the better, since no new enactment would be necessary. With regard to the visitation fees, he believed that, legally, they were very small; but, undoubtedly, the attendance of Churchwardens at visitations occasioned a large expense to parishes. As far as he could ascertain, their attendance did not seem absolutely necessary, and he proposed to dispense with it; enabling the

the money was to be laid out, and he ap-matters of detail he might briefly advert prehended, that it would be amply sufficient for the purpose. By the Returns upon the Table of the House, it appeared, that the sum hitherto yearly expended upon the fabric of the churches was 249,000l.; but to the sum of 250,000l. to be derived from the Land-tax might be added about 50,000l. which was obtained from landed property belonging to the Church. Hence he had no doubt, that the sum he had mentioned would be found amply sufficient; but, in making this arrangement, it was necessary to recollect, that, in a certain number of instances, the Church-rates had been mortgaged, and he proposed that the mortgagees should have the first lien upon the 250,000l. Yet, he apprehended, it would be sufficient, because the whole amount thus circumstanced and outstanding with the know-parochial clergyman to swear them anledge of the Commissioners of New Churches was 84,000l. There might, indeed, be other sums-he knew that there were other sums-but they were far from considerable, and would all be covered by far less than the amount of 250,000l. to be taken from the Land-tax. The House was aware, that as the. law at present stood, besides the fabric of the Church,

nually, as was now done at visitations, but not taking from them the power of making presentments. The Committee would feel, that in making this change, it would be necessary to impose some fresh check on the expenditure of the money to be placed in the hands of the Commissioners. The present check had been found very insufficient; it was, that when a Vestry

decided upon the necessity of making | tributions. He knew not in what spirit or some repair, alteration, or improvement of mode the proposition he had just opened a church, in voting the money for the was likely to be received; he would not purpose, they, in fact, taxed themselves, admit, that any man was more sincerely as they were some of the parties who attached to the Church than he was; but paid. Under his plan, the reverse would he was not at all aware in what way such be the case; the money would not be paid as were more peculiarly to be looked by the parish, and without some check the upon as its advocates and supporters expenditure might be too lavish. The first would accept this plan; for the same check would be, that the sum of money to reason he was ignorant how the Disbe applied to the purpose would be limited. senters would take it, but he was perIf the Commissioners found that the calls fectly confident that it would place the upon them were greater than they had maintenance of the fabric of the Church funds at their disposal, they would be upon a better footing than that it had under the necessity of refusing and re- hitherto stood upon. Of this he was sure, turning the claim; but, in addition to that if the existing law remained unthis first check, it was intended to esta- amended, the greatest difficulties might blish a second, of this nature:-That arise; if, indeed, the consequence were when the Churchwardens and Clergyman not that ere long the Churches of the of a parish thought any repair of the kingdom would be without the means of fabric necessary, the surveyor of the due repair. The Dissenters admitted county should be called in to examine that they did not object to the amount, the Church, and to decide whether the but to the principle of Church-rates; opinion was well or ill founded. The sur- they objected to pay money for the supveyor would have to report the result of port of a Church in the doctrines of his examination of the Church to the which they could not agree. As far, Quarter Sessions, and the certificate of therefore, as both parties had expressed the Quarter Sessions would be required, an opinion, this measure would probably in order to warrant any advance by the be satisfactory to both. Another point Commissioners. He believed, that the not immediately relevant to the question, Surveyors in the different counties of but which the Committee would not fail England were almost invariably men of to take into view, was, that the effect of high respectability, and it was the interest the new plan would be, not only to reof the Quarter Sessions, who had the ap- lieve Dissenters from their scruples, but pointment of them, to take care that they the people of England from a considerwere men upon whom they could rely. able amount of taxation. It was proThis control, together with the limita- posed to apply 250,000l. from the Landtion of the sum, he believed, would tax; but the sum hitherto annually examount to a sufficient check upon unne- pended upon churches and chapels in cessary and extravagant expenditure. It England and Wales, and raised by Churchmight be said, that he had made no pro-rates, was between 500,000l. and 600,0007.; vision for organs, for a large number of it was 560,000l. by the latest return upon bells, or for anything of that kind which might be considered a religious luxury. This was true; and it might be urged, that where these luxuries already existed, it was necessary to preserve them; where it was necessary, he had no doubt they would be preserved by voluntary contributions. It was possible, not to say very possible, that the proposition of the hon. member for Exeter, that the whole should be left to voluntary contributions, would be sufficient; but in the present state of the Church of England, and looking at the principle on which it existed, he did not think it would be consistent with that principle to leave the support of the various fabrics merely to voluntary con

the table. The relief from taxation pressing upon the body of the people would thus be important, and would amount to the difference, or nearly so, between 250,000l. and 560,000l. The expenditure had, no doubt, been extravagant in many instances, for sometimes the Churchwardens, and vestry, who ought to have guarded the interests of the parish, were benefited by the expenditure. This year a Churchwarden procured an order for something he thought ornamental, with a view to the perpetuation of his name, and next year, perhaps, a tradesman had influence enough to procure some other expenditure which would be to his advantage. For all these reasons, from what