only comprehended among its adherents a mere minority, which was daily decreasing in numbers." He was not aware that any part of this statement was consistent with the fact. He believed, indeed, that parts of it were utterly inconsistent with the fact, and they who made this statement were misinformed when they were led to suppose that the adherents of the Established Church in England were a mere minority. He was informed, too, that they were equally incorrect in saying the same thing as applicable to the Church of Scotland. Having set forth these matters as the foundation of their prayer a statement on which he entirely differed from them-they went on to call upon Parliament to abolish the connection between Church and State; to put an end, in fact, to the Church Establishment in one part and the other of the kingdom, and to apply the revenues of the Church to other purposes than those to which they were now applicable. He could not agree with them on this point. He considered that the proposition which began the statement of this Petition led to a directly opposite conclusion. The Petitioners objected to a civil establishment of religion, which, they said, violated consciences, was partial and unjust, was opposed to good morals and good government, and was injurious to Christianity itself; and that all persons had a right to hold opinions which they conscientiously and honestly entertained, and to belong to such church, whether an Established Church, or a sectarian Church, in the doctrines preached at which they could sincerely and conscientiously believe. Now, if the great body of the people of this country, or of Scotland, seriously believed, that a Church Establishment was the best mode of maintaining their opinions, those individuals, whether the minority or the majority, had an undeniable right to have a Church Establishment, and still more undeniably, if they were the majority; for he never yet had heard, that the majority had not a right to maintain any establishment they might think fit. It was a perfectly debatable question. While there was no illegality nor impropriety in the opinion held by the Petitioners, and while the language in which they addressed their Lordships' House was respectful and proper, their Petitions deserved attention; but he trusted, that he should be accused of no disrespect to the Petitioners, in observing that in these parts of the statement, and of the prayer of the Petition, his opinion did not agree with theirs. In one part of the Petition he did concur. The Petitioners stated, that the Dissenters of England were subject, in consequence of the law, to several grievances even still more than those of which the Petitioners themselves complained; that these grievances were unjust in themselves, and hurtful to the State, as enforced against a number of enlightened and powerful men, who had performed eminent services in the cause of religious, moral, and political freedom. There was nothing more just or proper than this well-earned praise thus bestowed upon the Dissenters; and such had been the conduct of the Dissenters on all these points, that he was prepared to say that, whatever praises might be bestowed upon them for their conduct, it was impossible they should be exaggerated. He, therefore, wholly coincided with the Petitioners in saying, that some of the matters of which the Dissenters complained were evils; and in that part of the Petition which prayed, that the Legislature would take such steps as were necessary to put an end to all distinctions in respect of civil and constitutional privileges, as were grounded on differences in religious matters, he most heartily concurred; and he trusted that Ministers would be able to consummate that which they had begun. He might add, that, as far as the revenues of the Church were concerned, so far as those revenues depended upon taxation, he hoped that the measure which the Government had introduced into the other House of Parliament, would be such that it would not be necessary to go further; and, as far as the bulk of the Church revenues was concerned (he meant tithes), he hoped that the measure of which his noble Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had given notice, and which, but for his noble Friend's indisposition, would have been introduced into the other House two days ago, would prove fully satisfactory. CRIMINAL COURTS.] The Lord Chancellor begged to present their Lordships with a Bill, which, if he did not greatly deceive himself, would afford a remedy to several inconveniences in the administration of criminal justice in this great metropolis, and would place on a more satisfactory footing, for the future, that most important part of the administration of the laws of the land. Differing from others, the county of Middlesex, and the county of the city of London, were subject partly to magistrates assembled at sessions, under their general commission of the peace, as in other coun ties, and partly to the jurisdiction of the their duties. Nevertheless, he was not one magistrates under commissions of Oyer and of those who was satisfied in all particulars Terminer, issued from time to time, under to see so vast a mass of the criminal business which they sat with so much regularity, of the county transacted by magistrates apthat though the commissions were in the pointed as magistrates were known to be, eyes of the law occasional commissions, they the more especially when they were not were, in fact, commissions for the regular assisted in the discharge of their duties by holding of courts. In another respect, a professional man. It was true, that, at there was a difference between the county this moment, the magistrates of Middlesex of Middlesex and other counties, for the had the assistance of a learned gentleman jurisdiction established in the Old Bailey who acted as their Chairman; but as that had cognizance not only over offences com- gentleman received no salary, it was quite mitted in the county of Middlesex, but over impossible to expect that that assistance those committed in the city of London. should long continue to be given. It was The extension of jurisdiction which this of importance, therefore, that some wellBill contemplated would, he thought, be considered arrangement should be made. It productive of many advantages to good was of the utmost importance, that the adorder and morals, by creating a more fre- ministration of criminal justice should be quent administration of the law at the Old uniform. It was with a view to such an Bailey. It would, among other things, object, that it had frequently been said, that prevent the gaols from being over-crowded there should be a centre from which, and a with prisoners; but, in addition to this, the point to which, all that was connected with speed with which the punishment followed the administration of justice should issue the offence, would be of advantage incal- and be referred. Without alluding to culable in the repression of crime. There any circumstance of an invidious nature, had already been an increase in the number or without alluding to any unpleasant colof periods at which the Old Bailey Sessions lisions which might have taken place, had been held; but, nevertheless, the fre- he would state at once, that after quency of the Sessions had not increased as much consideration, he had come to the demand for the labour of the Court re- this conclusion-that the more the busiquired, and it was therefore one part of the ness was concentrated under the Judges measure which he now proposed, that this of the Old Bailey, so much the better frequency of the Sessions should be in- would it be for the subject, for the King's creased, and that there should be twelve peace, and for the administration of the Sessions at the Old Bailey instead of eight, criminal law of the country. It was with as at present. It was a peculiarity which that view, and acting under these princidistinguished this jurisdiction from all others ples, and this conviction, that he introduced of a similar sort, that the Grand Jury who this Bill. By extending the jurisdiction of found the bills on which criminals were to the Old Bailey, the despatch of business be tried at the Old Bailey, for offences com- would be insured, and a better tribunal mitted within the county of Middlesex, was would be provided for the trial of those a Grand Jury assembled at Clerkenwell, numerous, and frequently important, cases where the magistrates of the county sat which now went to the sessions. under a commission of Oyer and Terminer, measure which he was about to propose as well as under their general commission had these specific objects in view. At the of the peace, as he had before said. This Old Bailey, the Lord Mayor and Magiswould henceforth be unnecessary. The in- trates of the city of London presided. They crease of criminal business at these Sessions had the assistance of the Recorder and had been most considerable, and had been Common-Sergeant - gentlemen of great great in proportion to the increase of their legal ability, and who generally had had other business. The change which had long professional experience as advocates. happily taken place in the relaxation of the It was, he was sure, impossible for him to severity of our criminal law had also in- speak in terms too high of their legal knowcreased the number of cases that might come ledge. Not only were those sessions holden before the magistrates at Clerkenwell. He before those valuable magistrates, assisted should not utter one word in disparagement by the learned Recorder and the Commonof the worthy individuals who composed Sergeant. (and, of late years, by the that bench, and indeed it was impossible Deputy-Recorder), but what was still not to applaud the industry, zeal, assiduity, more important, and which distinguished and integrity with which they discharged the Old Bailey sessions from all others- The they received the assistance of the Judges | tried almost immediately; but if the same of the Land, including the Chief Justice offence, or an offence of a more atrocious of the Court of King's Bench. In addition character, were perpetrated at a few yards to the advantages which those sittings de- distance on the other bank of the river, it rived from the trying of cases before those could not be tried for five or six months, learned persons, the highest legal authori- when the Surrey assizes were held. In the ties in the kingdom, this also was to be taken same way, if an offence were committed at into the account-that in consequence of Greenwich, a few furlongs down the river, his vicinity to the rest of the Judges, the the criminal must be tried at Maidstone. learned individual who presided was en- He would, to obviate these evils and inabled, whenever the least point of difficulty conveniences, take the whole extent he had occurred, to have access to, and to procurementioned as one great city, and place it the opinion of, his brother Judges. These under the same Jurisdiction. Within that were the circumstances which had oc- limit, whether an offence were committed casioned the country to place such confi- on one side of the river or the other, dence in the way in which justice was whether it was perpetrated a little higher administered at the Old Bailey. The Bill up or a little lower down, the jurisdiction which he now proposed to their Lordships of the Old Bailey should extend, and that would, in the first place, do away entirely court have full power to try the case. He with that extraordinary anomaly, the find- should propose, that all the places which he ing bills at one place, which were to be had named should be amenable to this juristried at a considerable distance-a proceed- diction, because, properly speaking, they ing in consequence of which judges, jurors, might be said to belong to the metropolis. prosecutors, counsel, and witnesses, were Thus the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey often kept waiting for bills. It was next would extend all over Middlesex, a part of proposed, (and he would only now touch Surrey and Kent, and a small portion of briefly on a few of the principal points)-it Essex. He proposed to add four to the was next proposed to extend the jurisdiction present eight annual sessions; consequently, of the Old Bailey considerably beyond its there would be a sitting for the adminispresent limits, and to increase the frequency tration of criminal justice every month in of the sessions. At present the sessions the year. An arrangement was also made were held eight times in the year, and the in the Bill for transferring from the jurisdiction extended over the whole Quarter Sessions, held by the Magistrates county; but it did not extend to all the of Middlesex, to the Old Bailey Sessions, places which might be called a part of the of offences beyond a certain extent of metropolis, and where the population was criminality. It was provided that the exceedingly dense. He was in favour of jurisdiction of the Quarter Sessions for the a great extension of the metropolitan juris-county of Middlesex should be confined to diction, because he could imagine no conceivable reason for confining it to its present restricted limits. He knew not why it should be restricted to one bank of the river. He would extend the Old Bailey jurisdiction to the great borough of Southwark, and all the districts in its neighbourhood, containing a population of between 90,000 and 100,000 souls. He would also include Lambeth, Greenwich, and Woolwich, with several other large parishes, comprehending, he believed, as many as a dozen places. These places he should propose to bring within the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey Sessions; Southwark and Lambeth, though not on the same bank of the river on which the metropolis properly so called was seated, might yet be fairly said to form a part of it. As the system now existed, an offence committed in Middlesex, in consequence of the Old Bailey sessions being held eight times in the year, was misdemeanours and to other offences which did not render the offenders liable to punishment of more than seven years' transportation. There would be a clause, however, enabling persons arraigned before the Quarter Sessions of the county of Middlesex, to remove their cases by certiorari to the Court at the Old Bailey. He was quite aware, indeed it would immediately strike their Lordships, that the effect of this arrangement might be, to impose new and additional labour on the learned Judges who presided at the Old Bailey; and it was necessary he should state in what way he proposed to meet that objection; and in the first place, he must state, that no one who knew those learned and excellent individuals as he did, both professionally and personally, could have the slightest vestige of doubt on his mind, that as far as their strength and time would at all permit, regard being had to their present avoca tions, they would be the last individuals in the world to object to what they would not call, but what he for them would call, the incumbrance of additional business. They were ready to devote every moment of their time, which needful relaxation did not absolutely demand, to the performance of their high and most important functions. But it did not follow, because those learned individuals were willing to undertake that, their Lordships should be too ready to impose on them an additional burthen, as to the extent of their business, without an absolute necessity, or without awarding them a reasonable compensation-he meant compensation in the way of a diminution of their other labours. Now, their Lordships were aware, that up to 1828 and 1829, the number of the Judges was only twelve. The measures of those years, however, ripening into an Act of Parliament, which was passed in the last year of his late Majesty, led to an increase in their number of no small amount-to one-fourth, in fact; so that, instead of twelve, they became fifteen. One of the principal motives of this increase, which justified and rendered it indeed absolutely necessary, was the fact, that at that time the Welch judicature being abolished, two new circuits were created, and new Judges, of course, were required. But that only occasioned the necessity of two Judges going circuit twice, about six weeks during the whole year; and the three new Judges were ready at all times not only to go circuits, but to perform all other judicial duties. He did not mean to deny, that, in the alterations which of recent years had taken place in law proceedings, there had been an augmented mass of civil business; yet, beyond all doubt the number of Judges had been increased in a very considerable proportion higher than the judicial labour to be performed. Now, it required but little reference to arithmetic to show, that as the sessions were only eight at the Old Bailey, the number of Judges being twelve, the same proportion would still hold; the Judges being fifteen, and the sessions ten. But then it was now proposed, instead of ten, to make the sessions twelve in the course of the year. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that some seven years ago, a winter circuit had been established, having been deemed necessary in consequence of the vicinity to the metropolis of the home counties. That, however, had given rise to very great inconvenience, and had been much complained of, not only by the profession, but also by the suitors and witnesses who had been mainly concerned. In the home, it was obviously more necessary that there should be three circuits in the year, than in any of the other counties of England; and the reason for the winter circuit was, to dispose of the business connected more or less with the city of London upon the Surrey and Kent side of the river; and, therefore, if from that circuit all those districts were withdrawn which occasioned its necessity, there would not remain the slightest reason for, indeed the ground would fail entirely on which the third winter circuit was established. He looked forward, then, as the immediate consequence of this measure, to the entire abolition of that winter circuit, which had led to inconvenience, and which had deprived the suitors of the advantage of those members of the bar who usually attended the summer and spring assizes. Putting those circumstances together, taking also into account that three Judges at the Old Bailey had long been felt wholly unnecessary, two being quite sufficient to transact the business, with the assistance of the learned Recorder and Common-Sergeant,-placing those matters one against another, the proposed arrangement would not give the Judges an atom more business than they now had, but certainly no more than the amount they had to transact a few years back, when their numbers were twelve instead of fifteen. He had thought it necessary to state those few circumstances in order to account for the apparent augmentation,-for it was only apparent,which under the new system would be made in the labours of the Judges, although, as he before stated, they would be the last individuals to entertain the shadow of a shade of dissatisfaction at any addition or increase being made to their public judicial functions. Having stated thus much, he must be allowed to say, that, in his view, there was nothing more important, nothing which would tend more to the welfare and good government of the metropolis, nothing which would more immediately bear on the interests of the King's peace, and the good administration of the law all over the country, than some such change as that now proposed; proceeding on some such principle, and pointing to those grand objects of paramount importance-the_uniformity, the concentration, the regularity of the jurisdiction to be established;-its extension, so as to bring within its scope all the parts of this great metropolis; and the from several Places,-for the Abolition of Tithes in Ireland, and for the Repeal of the Union.-By Mr. E. J. STANLEY, from Bowdon,-for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.-By Sir OSWALD MOSLEY, from Totmonslow, against paying Toll for the Carriage of Lyme. From Burton-upon-Trent, against any Measures likely to lessen the Efficiency of the Established Church.-By Mr. G. W. WOOD, from Chorobent, for Relief to the HandLoom Weavers.-By Mr. LABOUCHERE, from Taunton, against the Employment of Children in cleaning Chimneys.-By Mr. TANCRED, from the Members of the College of Surgeons in Banbury, for an Inquiry into the State of the Profession.-By Mr. T. SMITH, from Great Missenden, for the Amendment of the Poor Laws.-By Lord G. BENTINCK, Colonel EVANS, and Messrs. TANCRED, J. SMITH, V. SMITH, HUTT, ORD, H. FLEETWOOD, CAYLEY, E. J. STANLEY, GROTE, S. LEFEVRE, H. L BULWER, and TOLLEMACHE, from a Number of Dissenting Congregations,-for Relief to the Dissenters. greater frequency of its administration, so as to effect the greatest possible despatch in that most essential branch of our judicature, by making the trial and punishment of offences follow as speedily as possible after their commission. Such were the objects which he had in view, and which he thought were provided for by the Bill which he should have the honour of submitting to their Lordships. When setting forth the districts to which the proposed jurisdiction was to be extended, he ought to have mentioned the amount of population which would be comprised; and he was sure, that by stating the great increase which of late years had taken place in that respect, he DISSENTERS-CAMBRIDGE PETITION should show still more clearly the necessity-ADJOURNED DEBATE.] The debate which existed for the change. The popula-upon this subject was resumed. tion of London, Middlesex, Southwark, Lambeth, and the Kentish towns proposed to be included in the extended jurisdiction, without taking into consideration those parts of Essex which would also be comprised in the change, amounted at present to between 1,600,000 and 1,700,000, while ten years ago it amounted to no more than 1,300,000; showing an increase of from 300,000 to 400,000. The judicature thus enlarged would extend over a population of from 1,600,000, to 1,700,000; which was equal to many great and even powerful kingdoms, and concentrating in a narrow space one of the densest populations in Europe. He should now move, that the Bill be read a first time; and although he had already communicated with many learned individuals immediately concerned on the subject, in order that time might be given for additional communication, he should then move that it be printed and stand over for further consideration. The Bill read a first time. 124. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, March 26, 1834. MINUTES.] Bills. Read a second time:-High Ways; Hemp and Flax Bounties.--Read a third time:-ExPetitions presented. By Mr. HESKETH FLEETWOOD, from the Hand-Loom Weavers of North Meols, for Relief.-By chequer Receipt. Colonel EVANS, from St. Clement Danes, against the House and Window Taxes; and from the Vestrymen of the Sale of Spirituous Liquors in Ireland.-By Mr. General Register Bill.-By Mr. GROTE, from the City of an HON. MEMBER, from Dumfries, for Remuneration to Colonel Williams said, that as this petition was, in fact, a consequence of a communication or correspondence he had had with the University of Cambridge, he might be expected to take some part he had a motion on this same subject, in the present discussion. As, however, and as it had been thought advisable that this motion should be postponed till the 17th of April, and as the hon. member for Lancashire had allowed his (Colonel Williams's) motion to take precedence on that day, he would reserve any ations he had to make on the subject till he brought forward his motion. observ Sir Robert Inglis said:* My right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Stanley), who addressed the House at the close of the discussion yesterday, commenced his speech by an apology, first, for speaking on a question arising upon a petition presented from Cambridge, inasmuch as he was an Oxford man; and, secondly, for speaking at all upon any petition inasmuch as he had often deprecated the practice as inconvenient, if not irregular. If such apology were necessary from my right hon. friend, it is doubly necessary, on both grounds, from me; since I am still more nearly connected with the sister University, from which this petition does not proceed; and since, if any individual had a right to speak on any petition, my right hon. friend might claim it; and, certainly, on much better grounds than I can urge for myself. I am, at the same time, willing to hope, that, as he asked the attention of the House, on the ground, that the subject was one Ꮓ Printed from a corrected Edition. |