all 20,000l. a-year nearly for the Ottoman | paid to our Consul at Hamburgh by sayEmpire. ing, that we had no diplomatic agent resident there. He could not in the same way account for the remuneration given to the British Consul at Constantinople. In Constantinople we had an Ambassador; yet we had there a Consul in the receipt of 1,6001. a-year, and a Vice-Consul to whom was allowed 700l. a-year. In his opinion the whole matter ought to be referred to a Committee. Mr. Spring Rice said, that the hon. Member who had just spoken had referred to the difference that was to be found in the amounts paid to our Consuls, and had particularly referred to those in the Ottoman Empire and in Egypt; but he thought, that any attempt to reduce these allowances to a fixed scale would fail. There were some special circumstances connected with Egypt, to which he begged to call the attention of the House. As regarded Alexandria, we had no Minister, no diplomatic agent there of any kind, and it consequently devolved on the Consul to act in the capacity of diplomatic agent, in addition to the discharge of his ordinary duties, To estimate the labour of the Consul, then, by comparing the trade of Alexandria and this country with our trade with any other port, was to take a very erroneous view of the matter. We must adapt our establishments in other countries to the nature of our connexion with those countries. In investigating the anomalies of salaries, it would be found that there were other anomalies of situation and circumstances which justified the former. If we sent persons to distant countries, must we not pay them according to the peculiarities in the society, according to the badness of the climate, or according to the rate of living? At Hamburgh we had no diplomatic representative, which would account for the difference observed in the amount of pay to our Consul there, as compared with the amount paid to our Consul at Amsterdam. Mr. George Frederick Young was glad to see the right hon. the First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir James Graham) taking his seat, because he (Mr. Young) wished to call the attention of the Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a Member, to the fact, that in 1830, the right hon. Gentleman, in a Motion which he then made, did attempt to lay down some general principle, to the effect that the salaries of British Consuls should not exceed the sum of 1,000l. a-year, except in the cases of such as were sent to South America, in favour of whom a difference was to be made in consideration of the greater cost of living in that country. The explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman who last spoke, would not be found satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman had accounted for the large salary Mr. Ewart said, that the salaries to the Consuls ought to have proportion to the amount of British shipping frequenting the port. He approved of the suggestion of the hon. member for Tynemouth to appoint a Committee, and would support a Motion to that effect if one were made. Viscount Palmerston said, that since he came into office, it had been in his power to effect reductions in the Consular Department to the extent of 29,000l. That was about one-third of the whole amount, and might, he thought, be taken as a fair earnest of the disposition of the Government to make all possible reductions consistent with the efficiency of the public service. He had reduced all the Consuls-General, except, in those few instances, where the public service required that such officers should be continued, and, in every single appointment, some reduction was made of the salaries of Consuls and Vice-Consuls; indeed, very strong representations were made to him from all the parties whose salaries were thus reduced, setting forth the hardship of the reduction; and he felt it necessary to reply to them by a general circular, in which he declared the necessity of the reductions, and his inability to revise them in any case. It was objected, that there seemed no fixed principle or scale in effecting those reductions, and that the salaries were not proportionate to the amount of the tonnage of shipping at the particular places where Consuls were appointed. To this he must say, that, in the first place, the amount of shipping, in any given place, was no adequate criterion of the duties of the Consuls, for the attention to shipping formed only a part of the duties of a Consul. He had various others to perform, such as attending to the complaints of British subjects, and seeing that justice was done to them in the several states where they resided; and it was well known that, in the South American States, this formed a heavy part of the Consul's duties. The Consuls had | Now, it was well known, that where the likewise many returns to make to the precious metals abounded, the value of Foreign Office, some of a statistical nature, money was greatly diminished in its relaand others relating to commerce and to tion to the necessaries of life, as comthe produce of grain, which imposed upon pared to places where those metals were them a considerable degree of labour. not so abundant. The salaries of the Then, again, in many places, the Consuls Consuls to the South American states, had political duties to perform, which therefore, though larger in nominal would account for the large salaries of amount, were not, in effect, greater in some of them as compared with others. relation to what they could purchase there As to the larger amount of salaries in dif- than numerically smaller salaries in other ferent places, where nearly the same places. The noble Lord referred to several amount of duty was to be performed; for items in the Consular List, which had been instance, in Marseilles, as compared to already touched upon by the right hon. Bourdeaux, it would be explained by the member for Cambridge, and contended fact, that, in some places, the reduction that, in every case, reductions had been had been made when the office of Consul made to as great an extent as circumbecame vacant, when a much larger re- stances would admit. It would, he added, duction could be made than from a party be idle to make a rule-of-three question of who had already held it. Much also would each case, and to contend that each Condepend on the reduction of salaries, or the sul should be paid according to the tonamount of fees which some Consuls re- nage of shipping at each port. No ceived as compared with others. As to general rule could be laid down applicable the plan of reducing, or rather raising, the to every case. salaries of Consuls-General to 1,0007. each, he would observe, that it would not be a sound course. It would be establishing a general rule where no general rule could apply. Each case must be considered according to its peculiar circumstances. There were only three ConsulsGeneral in Europe, whose salaries exceeded 1,000l. a-year. There was the ConsulGeneral at Hamburgh, who had 1,5007. a-year; but it should be considered, that we had no diplomatic agent at the Hanse Towns, and that the Consul-General at Hamburgh was called upon to perform duties as our diplomatic agent for those towns. With respect to the Consul-General at Alexandria, he had, as had been already observed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Spring Rice), most important political functions to exercise, and his salary ought to bear some just proportion to the nature of those functions; but he must add, that the salary of the present Consul was less than that of his predecessor, Mr. Salt, and was as low as he conscientiously believed ought to be given for such duties. An hon. Member had objected to the high salaries given to our Consuls in the South American states. He had already adverted to the onerous nature of some of their duties, but, let him add, that though the nominal amount of those salaries might be high, that amount ought to be considered with reference to the quantity of the necessaries of life which it would purchase. Mr. Pease said, he had no doubt whatever, that the greatest reduction of the salaries of Consuls might be made where there existed the greatest amount of trade. Looking to the advantages which accrued to commercial men (which could not arise to others) from these appointments, he thought great changes might be made. He must, indeed, add, that these appointments were of considerable importance to the shipping interest, and only those who understood that subject should be appointed to fill the office. Mr. Clay thought, that the speech of the noble Lord (Palmerston) was the best ground for referring this matter to a Select Committee, for though the noble Lord had shown that no general rule could be applied to all classes, he had failed to answer or explain some of the anomalies which had been pointed out. He had not explained why, in some places, there was a Consul-General, but no Vice-Consul, or why both Consul General and Vice Consul were kept up in other places where we had a resident diplomatic agent. Thus, in Lisbon, he found we had a Consul at 6007., and a Vice-Consul at 3007.--whilst, at St. Michael's, we had a Consul-General at 4007., and a Vice-Consul at 1007. And yet, in places of greater consequence, in Rotterdam, &c., he found the services ofthe Consul alone were considered sufficient. To these anomalies no sufficient consideration was or could be given in the Committee, and who did not deserve this censure, it was the Consuls appointed by this country. They were always at their posts, or if absent from it upon any occasion, they were bound to appoint some person to act for them, and the expense thus incurred was cut off from their salary. With respect to the observations of the hon. Gentleman as to the salary to the ConsulGeneral at Hamburgh, he wished the hon. Member to suspend his judgment until the dispute which existed on the part of his constituents touching the conduct of this Consul-General were settled, they having made a charge of inactivity against that Gentleman. Colonel Evans begged to ask where the Consul-General for Austria resided, to whom a salary of 1,000l. was given? Did he reside in Bohemia ? Viscount Palmerston, in reply, stated that he generally resided at Milan. The Vote was agreed to. On a vote of 20,000l. being proposed to enable his Majesty to issue money for the erection of school-houses, in aid of private subscriptions for that purpose, for the education of the poorer classes in England, and, therefore, the whole ought to be referred to a Committee above-stairs. He would not say, that the noble Lord might not be able to give a satisfactory explanation of every item in the list to a Select Committee; but as such details could not be well entered into in that House, he thought it would be a just ground for the House to refuse the vote until some such preliminary inquiry had been gone into. Mr. Hutt thought, that after the turn the Debate had taken, he should best consult the object he had in view, if he withdrew the suggestion he had made, with the view of making a Motion for referring the whole subject of our Consular Establishment to a Select Committee, which he would do on the bringing up of the Report; for, it was perfectly clear, that cases of great anomaly and gross extravagance in the expenditure of the public money existed in many of those appointments, and, on this ground, he did look for the support. of the House and of the Government in the Motion which he intended to make. He would not then follow the noble Lord into the details to which he had gone; but he feared that neither in that House nor in a Select Committee would the noble Lord be able to convince him of the propriety of giving 2,000l. a-year to one Consul at Lima, and only 6,00l. a-year to another at Marseilles. Neither could he concur in the large salary of 1,500l. ayear, and as much more in fees, to our consul at Hamburgh, when he found that the Austrian and American consuls at that town had each a salary not exceeding 5007., and he had never heard of any complaint being made by the merchants of either of those countries that every attention had not been paid to their business. But, said, the noble Lord, the ConsulGeneral was to be regarded not as a Mr. Ewart suggested the propriety of commercial but as a diplomatic cha-instituting normal schools, after the plan racter also. This Consul-General re- adopted by the Prussian Government. ceived, perhaps, 1,500l. a-year in fees in addition to his allowance. In short, the whole system was vicious; it was a part of the system of Toryism and sinecurism, which he had hoped would have been annihilated by the Reform Bill. Viscount Palmerston said, that what the hon. Gentleman meant by the system of "Toryism" he could not comprehend; but with regard to the term of " sinecurism" he certainly understood that; and he begged to assure the House that if there was any set of men to whom this term did not apply, Major Beauclerk said, that he entirely agreed in the principle of the vote, and he heartily gave it his support. Mr. Hawes said, that the House and the country ought to be grateful to the Government for the manner in which the money had been distributed. The grant of this sum of 20,000l. had had the effect of inducing private individuals to subscribe, and no less an amount than 60,000%. had been raised in that way. Lord Morpeth believed, that no public grant of so limited an amount had ever been productive of so much good. Mr. Spring Rice said, that it was gratifying to him to learn, not only that the vote itself was approved, but also the principles upon which the money had been administered. The Government had been told, when this vote was first proposed, that if they did not give away the money unconditionally, the object they had in view would fail. They had not, however, so acted, for they required all parties applying to Government for the establishment of schools first to put down some of their own money for that purpose. They also paid over the fund to the two societies to whose care its distribution was intrusted in such a manner as to excite competition and rivalry between them. The result was, as might be seen from the returns on the Table, that by the grant of 20,0001. of the public money an expenditure of 48,1117. had been insured, and permanent means of instruction provided for 30,366 children. Mr. Murray complained of the exclusion of Scotland from the benefit of the proposed grant. Mr. Spring Rice said, that the reason why Scotland was not included in the grant was, because the vote was in the first instance neither more nor less than an experimental vote, though he was free to confess, that it now assumed somewhat of a different character. Mr. George F. Young hoped, that Government, in consequence of the favourable disposition evinced by the House with regard to this vote, would be induced to bring forward a proposition for a moderate extension of the grant, in order to its application to Great Britain generally. Mr. Grote was of opinion that Government ought to extend the vote, but, with the limited means in their hands, they had certainly done as much as could well be expected of them during the last year. He hoped they would be animated to still greater exertions in future. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, April 15, 1834. MINUTES.] Petitions presented. By Lord KING, from five Places in Ireland, for the Repeal of the Union, and against Tithes.-By the Duke of GORDON, from several Places, against any Alteration in the Corn Laws.-By the same, and the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Linlithgow, &c., for a different System of Church Patronage in Scotland. By the Marquess of STAFFORD, Lords ROLLE, WYNFORD, and DACRE, from several Places, -for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By Lords KENYON and ROLLE, from Dartmouth, &c., -for Protection to the Established Church.-By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Kirkford and Ifield, for Extending and Renewing the Labour-Rate Act.-By the Earl of TANKERVILLE, and Lords ELLENBOROUGH, KING, DACRE, and SUFFIELD, from a Number of Dis senting Congregations,-for Relief to the Dissenters. SALE OF BEER ACT.] Lord Wynford presented a Petition from Yatton, complaining of the evils occasioned by the multiplication of beer shops, and praying for the repeal of the Beer Bill. He was anxious to know what the Government intended to do on the subject. The Lord Chancellor said, he had reMr. Spring Rice said, as there were seceived so many applications of the same veral notices on the books with respect to kind, as that which the noble and learned the general question of education, there Lord had now made, not one-twentieth of would be other and more fittingopportunities which he could answer, that he conceived it for discussing the subject; but there was necessary to state shortly his opinion on the subject. The reason why those persons one proposition which had been thrown out, and which deserved the greatest pos- interest in this question arose from the were now disposed to take an anxious sible attention--he alluded to the estab-circumstance of many of them being Magislishment of normal schools, which he had no doubt would be of the greatest possible advantage, inasmuch as they would tend materially to improve, not only the schools to be built, but also those which were at present in existence; and he hoped his noble friend would authorize him, before the close of the present Session, to make some proposition to the House upon the subject. Lord Althorp said, that the reason why it had not been originally extended to Scotland was, its being understood that some provision already existed in that country to a considerable extent, while at the same time it was thought advisable that the experiment, to have full justice, trates, and most of them country gentlemen. The subject was certainly one of importance, and deserved to be considered. The plan which he had originally proposed to the House of Commons, with reference to beer-shops, had been most materially altered. The measure, as first introduced by him, proceeded on the principle, that beer should not be consumed on the premises. That measure did not succeed; and the House of Commons, disappointed in that respect, had addressed themselves to the consideration of a larger measure. Committee was appointed, at the head of which was the late Mr. Calcraft. That Committee collected much evidence, and a great deal of valuable information; and it Α to which, as their information and experience were very large and extensive, their representations ought to be particularly attended to. He alluded to those beer-houses which were opened on the edges of commons, and in lonely and remote country places, where no such establishments were ever known before. He believed, that the number of such houses erected under the Act was very considerable, and he could not help thinking, that the whole measure had got a bad name in consequence of that part of it which encouraged the establishment of beer-houses in solitary and lonely places, where depredations might be secretly planned. It might be necessary, therefore, to resist the establishment of beer-houses in solitary and unfrequented places; although, with respect even to them, there might have been exaggeration. He was, however, disposed to believe, that to a certain consequently against the measure, was well founded. He should now merely throw out the suggestion whether a modification of the kind to which he had alluded would not be proper-whether an effective visitation of those houses should not be provided for, at the same time that a due limitation should be preserved with respect to the power to be exercised by those to whom the visiting power was intrusted, finally came to the conclusion to recommend the introduction of that Bill, which was ultimately carried. That Bill, which contained a provision allowing beer to be consumed on the premises, though it was moved that such provision should be struck out, was passed into a law. He thought at the time, that it would encourage or open the door to practices of a very injurious description. Nevertheless, after consulting Mr. Goulburn, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Calcraft, who were intimately acquainted with the subject, he was led to think that the Committee had come to a sound conclusion. No doubt could, however, be now entertained that considerable abuse had grown up under the system. One great cause which he believed had led the House of Commons to agree to the Bill was, that it was expected that it would tend to check the evils attendant on the then existing system of licensing public-degree the charge against those houses, and houses. It was affirmed that licenses were granted, refused, or taken away, in many instances, rather with reference to personal feeling and interest, than to the good or bad conduct of the individual applying; and it was anticipated that that evil would be corrected. The result of the measure, however, had been to excite very numerous complaints-complaints that were not confined to one class of the community, but which came from the middle classes as well as from the country gentlemen and magistrates. He, however, was of opinion, that no precipitate measure should be adopted, but that a little further time should be given, to see if a remedy could not be found for those causes of complaint, and to ascertain correctly whether the existing Bill were so extremely pernicious in its effects as it had been represented to be. He knew that many classes of society cried out against beer-shops; but, in condemning them, one part of the question had been overlooked. Did those beer-shops do any mischief in cities, in great towns, or in towns even of moderate extent? He doubted it very much, unless they selected some town in which every second house was already an ale-house, some instances of which might be found in remote parts of the country. He did not think that any mischief was likely to result to a town where there were ten houses in which ale and spirits were retailed, if two houses were added where ale only was consumed. There was, however, a class of houses which the Magistrates and country gentlemen strongly pointed at, and with respect Lord Suffield had been intrusted with a petition, signed by all the Magistrates of the quarter sessions of the county of Norfolk, against the Beer Bill; and he must then say, that it was impossible for him to find language sufficiently strong to describe the extent of the evils, and the ramifications of the evils, which this measure had produced, and was producing in the rural districts. Lord Kenyon said, he had expected that some measure would before this have been brought forward to correct this great and crying evil by the noble Viscount opposite. As the noble Viscount had not brought in any Bill, and as no other noble Lord had given any hopes of introducing a measure for the amelioration of the system, he would give notice, that if the subject were not taken up in that House by some one else, he would himself bring forward a motion. relative to it. The policy on which the Sale of Beer Act proceeded, was to give the best article to the working classes, at the most reasonable rate. Now, he contended, that the proposed benefit might be gained, and all the evils be removed, if the hours during which it would be legal to serve |