The Committee then divided, when there appeared: Ayes 187; Noes 11-Majority 126. Several other Votes were agreed to, and the House resumed, HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, April 21, 1834. to know the contents of the petition, by whom it had been signed, and particularly to know whether he conceived, that the sentiments of the University were changed on this most important subject. On the Friday following, he received a letter, in which the Vice-Chancellor said, that he could not apprise him (the Duke of Gloucester) of what he did not know, and that there had been so much secresy about the matter that he himself, could not tell by whom the petition had been signed, and he merely gave some names; but the ViceChancellor added, that with respect to the sentiments of the University, he could assure him, that they should be communicated as soon as he had an opportunity to collect LORD, from a Number of Places,-for the Better Observ- the opinions of the whole body. Under ance of the Lord's Day. By the Duke of RICHMOND, these circumstances, he had abstained from Trade. By the same, from the Rate-Payers of Lothbury saying anything on the subject when the and other Places, to be relieved from the Performance of other petition was presented, as he conStatute Duty.-By the Duke of WELLINGTON, Earl FITZ-sidered that it would be a more proper MINUTES.] Bill. Read a second time:-Exchequer Offices. from the Hand-Loom Weavers of Perth, for a Board of WILLIAM, and Lord WYNFORD, from several Places, for Protection to the Established Church.-By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from the Provincial Synod of Fife, against, and by the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Kirkcudbright, and other Places, in favour of, an Alteration in the present thing for him to address that House when he should be able to communicate what were the true sentiments of the University System of Church Patronage in Scotland.-By Lord of Cambridge on this subject. It was im TEYNHAM, from Aughagoure, against Tithes. CAMBRIDGE PETITION AGAINST THE DISSENTERS.] The Duke of Gloucester said, that in pursuance of the notice which he had given on Friday last, he now rose to present to their Lordships a Petition signed by 258 members of the Senate of the University of Cambridge now assembled in the University, praying that their Lordships would not agree to the prayer of the petition signed by sixty-three of the resident members of the University, which was presented to their Lordships on the 21st of March. In anything which he might have occasion to say with respect to that petition, he assured their Lordships that he meant nothing unkindly towards those gentlemen who had signed it, most of whom he knew to be most eminent men, and with some of whom he had the pleasure of being acquainted. He always wished to observe the practice of their Lordships' House with regard to not making speeches upon petitions, but he must, on this occasion, shortly call their Lordships attention to the circumstances under which this petition was presented. Of the first petition he had never heard until Wednesday, the 19th of March, when he learnt from the newspapers, that such a petition was to be presented. He immediately wrote to the Vice-Chancellor, expressing his astonishment, and desiring possible for him to ascertain their opinions at the moment the former petition was presented. Every exertion was made to collect their sentiments upon the subject, but in consequence of the adjournment of Parliament on the 26th of last month, it was impossible to procure from them an expression of their opinions. It was only, therefore, on Wednesday last, that they had time to frame and agree to the petition which he then held in his hand. This petition was presented to the Caput, but, as their Lordships knew, by the laws of the University, any member of the Caput had the power of throwing out a petition, so as to prevent its being a petition from the Senate. On the occasion of the present petition being proposed, that power had been exercised by a professor of Downing College. It was rare that such a power was exercised with regard to a petition, for it did so happen, that no petition had been thus thrown out for a very long period until the present instance. Two graces, he would admit, had recently been rejected by the Caput; but they were for a complete alteration in the constitution of the University, and therefore, bore no analogy to a grace for a petition. He was ready at the same time to say, that he wished those graces had passed the Caput, for he was sure that they would then have been thrown out by a great majority of the Senate; and he also regretted, that the charge in any religion;-for one or the other must be the result? Were the tutors and divinity professors (whose professorships were endowed to teach the sublime doctrines of our Holy Church) to refuse to instruct the British youth in those divine truths upon which their happiness here and their future prospect of felicity depended? When a youth arrived at College to be educated for the Church, was he to be told that the Universities would teach him every branch of learning and science, but could not instruct him in that profession for which he was destined? It was said that Dissenters had been freely admitted till the time of James 1st.; and it was now made matter of blame that they had not been admitted since that period. That was in the year 1614, a period of no less than 220 years ago. If he wanted a defence for the exclusion, he might rest upon that. The University had prospered during that time, and during that time some of the greatest luminaries of science in the world had been educated there. During that time Newton, who possessed the greatest mind that ever man had, and other men of great eminence, had been reared within the walls of the University. Since the beginning of that period, too, the Revolution had happened, when all the institutions of this country were reviewed, and necessary changes introduced into them; and if any change was thought necessary in the University, that was the time at which it should have been introduced. The principle on which the University of Cambridge was founded, and by which it was guided, was that it was for the education of persons of the Church establishment, and especially for the education of those who were destined to be the clergy of that establishment. Almost the whole of the great offices of the University-the whole of the preferment of the University grace for allowing this petition had not passed the Caput, for as it now stood, it did not come from the Senate. That it was signed by 258 Members of the Senate who had signed it within two hours after knowing that it had been thrown out by the Caput, was a fact that showed pretty well what were the sentiments of the members of the University. He regretted, however, chiefly that this petition did not come from the Senate as a body, because, from that circumstance, he had not been able to put his name at the head of it, though he should have been most proud to have been able to do so. They had been told, that all the Dissenters asked was, to be able to take degrees at the University. Now, what did that amount to? Why it amounted to giving them the right to a place in the Senate to giving them votes as to all alterations of the laws of the University-as to all the offices there-and as to the disposal of the general patronage of the University. But, then, it was said that Dissenters received their education in the University; and that if they were admitted to receive their education, there could be no harm in admitting them to take degrees. He denied that this was a just conclusion. Dissenters were not acknowledged by the Charter-by the wisdom of our ancestors, who had founded the University-by the wisdom of the Sovereign who had sat on the Throne! What laws were enacted with respect to the young men who entered the University? They were obliged to take only two oaths, the object of which was, to maintain the discipline of the University, and to be faithful to the King. They were obliged to take the Oath of Allegiance, and an oath of obedience to the Charter of the University, and all authorities created by it. Into the hearts of men the University could not look; but it required the students to attend the chapels of the University. It had, however, been decided by the wisdom of our ancestors that when they were to receive degrees, they should conform to the Church of England for the safety of the Church and the best interests of the State. But the moment the Legislature said, the University must admit Dissenters, it could no longer oblige the under-graduates to at-realm (however respectable the Dissenters tend chapel. The whole system must be altered. Was the University to have Socinian professors, Unitarian professors; Jewish professors, Mahomedan professors, and Hindoo professors? or was it no longer to instruct the youth committed to its was in the Church. The preferment was all clerical; out of seventeen colleges, only two or three could have lay masters. In Trinity College, where there were sixty Fellows, there were only two lay fellowships. Would, then, the members of the Church of England, who happily formed the great majority of the population of this might be, of whom he wished to speak with the greatest respect), be satisfied to send their sons to an University, where religion was not taught, and where those intended for the Church could not be instructed in that profession? He thought not; and another petition he had to present after this | But he said, if the grievances were so great, was laid on the Table, would demonstrate the Inns of Court and the College of Phythe feelings of the members of the Church sicians should be called on to apply the of England. This morning an under-gra- remedy. Let him, in the name of the duate came to him, and requested, in the University where he had received his edunames of the under-graduates of Cambridge, cation, let him in the name of the that he would present their petition. He University which twenty-three years ago said "Young man I disapprove of under- had done him the honour of putting him graduates sending petitions to the Legisla- at its head, when he swore that he would ture-but as the example was last year defend its rights-let him, in the name of set by a Minister of the Crown, I cannot that University which had rendered such refuse-admiring as I do the religious feel- important services to the country by the ing that has actuated the bachelors and the education of the British youth (for so many under-graduates—to act upon the zeal with centuries he had almost said, but) for so which I am urged, and the peculiarity of long a period in the doctrines of the Church the case. I have been an under-graduate of England-which had furnished that myself, and I am now your Chancellor, Bench (the Bench of Bishops) with so and I will advocate your cause, and present many of the ornaments he now saw upon your petition." But would the Dissent-it, and with many, in former times, who ters be content with what the first petition proposed to grant them? Certainly not. In 1829 he voted for the Emancipation of the Roman Catholics, and reflected with much satisfaction on that vote. But would those noble Lords who were now Members of that House, and would the hon. Gentlemen who had seats in the other House of Parliament, would they have been satisfied with the declaration that they should have seats, but should never hold office, nor be capable of conferring office? They would have scouted such a proposition. And noble Lords might be assured, that if ever they granted to Dissenters the right to be admitted to take degrees in the University, they must grant them all those rights which now followed upon the taking of degrees. They must have a share in the power of altering the laws, and of disposing of the patronage of the University. If that fatal event should occur, he was convinced that the interests of the Church could not expect any longer to be safe. And why was all this to be done? Because some Gentlemen, who dissented from the Established Church, and who wished to practise the law, were now unable to come to the Bar without studying two years longer than was required from Gentlemen who had taken degrees at the University; and because Gentlemen, who were Dissenters, and who wished to become members of the faculty of medicine, did not receive from the faculty of Physicians all those advantages which were granted to those who had taken degrees at the Universities. Was it for such matters as these that legislative interference was called for in a way that could not be granted without injury to the interests of the Established Church? had been among the brightest ornaments of that Bench-which had put forth so many men eminent, not only in religion, but in science; let him, in the name of that University, ask their Lordships not to do that which must compel that University to refuse to teach religion to the British youth. He prayed their Lordships not to call on the University to alter that system which had brought them to that proud, high, and most useful pre-eminence (he must be allowed to say so, though he was their Chancellor, and ought perhaps for that reason to be silent) on which they now stood. He moved, that the petition he now held in his hand be laid on the Table. He should afterwards present another on the same subject. It was from the undergraduates of the University. He confessed that he was not an admirer of under-graduates presenting petitions to either House of Parliament, but, after the example which had been set on the other side, he felt, that he could not refuse, when 755 out of the 1,100 under-graduates had signed a petition (and more would have signed it had there been time), and sent a deputation to him, calling on him as their Chancellor to present it. He begged to add, that the petition from the members of the senate which he now presented was signed by eleven heads of houses, by eight professors, and twenty-nine tutors of colleges. Earl Grey rose and said, it was not his intention at the present period to enter into the general question of the propriety of opening the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge to the Dissenters. He would not be provoked into argument, he should merely notice a few topics that more immediately referred to the petition then be fore their Lordships. The petition re- ticularly in regard to the interest of those lated to a subject of the greatest importance learned bodies from which the illustrious to the people in general, but, if possible, of Duke would for ever exclude them. There still more moment to the Universities were other points in the illustrious Duke's themselves. He should take a different speech on which he found himself called course from that pursued by the petitioners upon to offer a few remarks. The illus. themselves. Future occasions would occur, trious Duke spoke of those petitioners as other opportunities must present themselves, forming a majority, when contrasted with when the question could be discussed the number of resident members who had with better hopes of viewing it upon signed the former petition. The number its broad, its full, and unquestioned merits. of petitioners in the present instance was He, however, must be permitted to 258-a number which far exceeded the state, that he emphatically denied, that whole number of residents in that Universuch results would take place from the sity. He might be mistaken, but, he beadmission of Dissenters into the Univer- lieved, that a great deal of pains had been sities as those contemplated by the illus- used to obtain a large attendance of Memtrious Duke who had presented the peti-bers of the Senate, with a view to passing tion. The illustrious Duke would impute the grace which had been proposed in opto Dissenters a desire to subvert the Estab-position to the former petition. The per lishment, to prostrate the privileges of the two learned bodies into which they then prayed for admission. They sought for no such power; they only prayed to be absolved from oaths, not to be obstructed by religious tests. That was the extent of their application; and, in making that appeal, they were willing to be bound by the laws, and governed by the statutes of the Establishments. They were already admitted to take academic distinctions in the Dublin University, or they might even enter the Cambridge Colleges; but although they might cross their portals-although they might participate in the advantages which they were likely to confer on the young, ardent, and aspiring mind-yet they were debarred from taking those degrees which would advance their further career in life. Thus far they might go, but no further. Against this barrier of exclusion they complained-against this denial of collegiate honours they petitioned: they humbly, respectfully, but energetically protested. Nothing, however, was further from their intention than to endanger the discipline, or attempt to undermine the fundamental principles of the Universities. Having said this much, he (Earl Grey) hoped he had said enough to remove the impressions which the speech of the illustrious Duke was intended to make upon the minds of their Lordships respecting the actuating motives of the Dissenters. He should, however, reserve for himself, the privilege of again meeting the question when it came next under discussion. The Dissenters, he contended, deserved the immunities they claimed. They ought to possess them, in fairness and justice; and, if possible, more par sons who attended were not, however, re sident members of the University. They were there collected for this particular purpose; and being so collected, it was not extraordinary that the petition should be numerously signed in the short space which the illustrious Duke had stated. If, however, they looked closely to the subject, they would find that the matter stood thus:-There were 193 members of the senate resident in the University; of these sixty-three had signed the former petition, and, at least, seven who had not signed, were decided friends to the prayer of the petition, and there were several who took no part one way or the other. Now of those who had signed the present petition, and who were decidedly opposed to the prayer of the former petition, about 108 could not be called resident members; and, deducting 108 from 193, their Lordships would see that there was not a very large comparative majority of those who were decidedly opposed to the petition amongst the resident members. He thought it right to state this fact; but he did not feel any wish to enter into the merits of the respective signatures. The illustrious Duke had done justice to those who had signed the former petition; and he was sure, that in his capacity of Chancellor of the University, before all men, the illustrious Duke would admit, that amongst those signatures were to be found the names of individuals who had done the greatest honour to the University by their learning, by their talents, by their extensive acquirements, by their exemplary morals, and by their honest devotion to the interests of the Established Church. Amongst them were to be found many the subject-opinions which he had since seen no reason to change. He still entertained a conscientious conviction, that, instead of endangering the security of the Established Church, the effect of the prayer of this petition, if it were admitted, would be to remove prejudice, to destroy animosity, and, by so doing, to impart strength to that Establishment which it was the most anxious wish of them all to uphold and support. gentlemen who were most actively employed in the education of the youth who were students in that University; and was it to be believed-was it to be credited for a single moment-that individuals placed in such a situation, and necessarily influenced by the considerations connected with that situation, was it to be supposed, that they would concur in signing a petition, a compliance with which would be calculated to produce the disastrous effects that had been described? Was it to be imagined, The Duke of Wellington could not that those gentlemen, who were amongst avoid making one or two observations on the most considerable persons in the Uni- what had fallen from the noble Earl at versity, and who took a large share in the the head of his Majesty's Government, education of the students-was it to be with respect to the petition presented by believed, that they would sign a petition the noble Earl himself, on the 21st of which went to destroy the system of educa- March. The noble Earl stated, that the tion according to the religion of the Esta- prayer of that petition was not to obtain blished Church-to overturn, in fact, the for the Dissenters a participation in the principles on which the University was honours and privileges mentioned in the founded and, finally, to lead to the petition that night presented by the illusdreadful consequences which the illustrious trious Duke, but that its only object was, Duke had described-namely, the subver- the removal from the Dissenters of certain sion of our most valued and venerated in- disabilities under which they now lastitutions? He entertained no such ap-boured in acquiring degrees and other adprehensions. On the contrary, he felt, that if the proposition embodied in the former petition were opposed, it would lead to those evils which a noble Lord on the other side of the House had formerly alluded to. He had but one word more to say. He admitted, that there had been an unusual exercise of the power of the veto in preventing the adoption of the grace to which the illustrious Duke had referred. The illustrious Duke had, however, in adverting to the unusual exercise of that power, stated, that in two recent instances, a similar course had been adopted-yes, on two occasions, a grace had been proposed to the Caput in accordance with the of the former petition. That effort having, however, been defeated, was it unreason able was it unnatural-was it improper, that one of those persons who proposed that grace, should exercise his privilege against that which was afterwards brought forward in opposition to the prayer of the first petition? He stated this in vindication of those who had supported the former petition. If he had been led further, in what he had said, than the general merits of the petition, he had to apologize to their Lordships for having done so. He certainly did not think, that this was the fit occasion for entering into a discussion of the question; and he should, therefore, content himself with referring to the opinjons which he had formerly expressed on prayer vantages, in the medical and legal professions. Now, it was perfectly true, that such was the apparent object of the forout of sight one circumstance stated by mer petition; but the noble Earl had kept the illustrious Duke-namely, that when the desired degrees were obtained by the Dissenters, those persons would become governors of the corporations in question, and would thus be placed in a situation which the noble Earl himself did not pretend that they ought to hold with respect to the education of the youth of the Universities. The noble Earl said truly, that the object of the petition presented by him on the 21st of March was, to obtain for Dissenters certain advantages in law and medicine; but there were other modes which might be resorted to in order to enable the parties to obtain the advantages desired, and the illustrious Duke had pointed out those modes. He must object to the mode proposed by the first petition--a mode which, upon the principles professed by the noble Earl, must be objectionable to the noble Earl himself, the ground of objection being, that the method referred to did give the Dissenters a share in the government of the Universities. That was the main difficulty which occurred to his mind when considering the subject. However, the House would have the question raised |