NAZIISM IN WEST GERMANY

Senator FERGUSON. This morning I heard that the idea of Naziism in Germany, in the West part of it, on a survey is entirely different than the High Commissioner thinks that it is. What have you got to say about that? He made a survey, and better than half of the people appear to be in sympathy with what Hitler had done, and all, which would indicate clearly that what we have done in Germany has been a failure

Secretary ACHESON. I heard

Senator FERGUSON [continuing]. Along that line.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. The NBC broadcast this morning

Senator FERGUSON. That is what I refer to.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. Which gave you that report, and I found it a disturbing report.

This is said to have come out of a questionnaire or
Senator FERGUSON. Twelve hundred people.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. Poll or something, which the Office of the High Commissioner carried out.

I have not seen it, and I do not know anything about it.

It is not in accord with what Mr. McCloy's last conclusions were, and what I should want to do would be to have the poll or whatever it is before me, and see what they asked and where they asked it, and what kind of a sampling it was, and also get Mr. McCloy's judgment about it.

I did not find that when I talked with representatives of the Chancellor in Europe, that he was deeply troubled about this.

There has been a recrudescence of this sort of thing, and I think everybody has felt that it has potential dangers to Germany of a high nature. That is one of the reasons I think why the treaty and the European army, the coal and steel community, this political union they are working on in Strasbourg now are so important.

I think there is a strong feeling in Germany that all those elements which are very vigorous, if they have support, can meet and frustrate anything of this sort. If they are closely allied with Western Europe they can do it. If they are left alone, then there seems to be a weakness in Germany in dealing with totalitarian movements. Therefore, I found the report disturbing, as disturbing as you did, but I have not got any conclusions about it.

it?

Senator FERGUSON. You have not got any direct information about

Secretary ACHESON. No sir: I have not seen it at all

Senator FERGUSON. From diplomatic sources about it?
Secretary ACHESON. NO.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you know how that, for instance, gets out and gets published before you have it here by cable?

Secretary ACHESON. I do not know unless the High Commissioner's Office put it out.

Mr. Perkins is the Assistant Secretary; he is not in charge of Germany now, but will soon be, I hope.

George, have you got any views about it?

Mr. PERKINS. No. Apparently there was a release in Bonn by the High Commissioner's Office of this questionnaire.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the gist of it?

Mr. PERKINS. As Senator Ferguson has indicated, that there was a growing feeling toward Naziism. There was an article in the Times yesterday by Drew Middleton which, I think, is where NBC got this from, which I read, but I again have not seen the details of it. You could not really get a very clear picture from that.

I think the main impression I got from it was there was an apathy towards Naziism rather than a great number of people being for it, but it is something that needs to be studied much more carefully than we have been able to do.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through, Senator?
Senator FERGSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Humphrey?

SOVIET BLOC FORCES IN EAST GERMANY

Senator HUMPHREY. I think, as a point of clarification, the Secretary referred to the forces in East Germany, in answer to Senator Gillette's question. Is it the case, Mr. Secretary, that the bulk of the Soviet forces that would pose as an immediate threat to the security of Western Europe are located in East Germany?

Secretary ACHESON. There are substantial Soviet forces, and then, as you know, the Soviet authorities and the East German authorities have created this force called the Bereitschaften, which is really an army, with heavy equipment, tanks, airplanes, and all of that, and is built on the theory that it can be almost immediately expanded, and can be doubled at once by just taking a new man and putting him alongside of each fellow in it, and you double the thing. You have got a highly trained corps with a few new people in it.

That force, plus the Soviet forces, are the ones which have been bothering everybody because they are fully equipped, fueled, and have got all the reserves of ammunition and everything else they need to take off.

If they took off, and there is nothing to oppose them, then you are in real trouble. Once you have a situation where they cannot achieve a quick result without a mobilization, that is a wholly different situation.

Senator HUMPHREY. In other words, General Ridgway and his staff feel that that would be the immediate threat, is that a fair question?

Secretary ACHESON. I believe so.

Senator HUMPHREY. We are now prepared under NATO to meet that threat with existing forces?

Secretary ACHESON. I think it is fair to say that; I would not want to pose as the chief of staff.

Senator HUMPHREY. I know, but from your observations and your understanding of it?

Secretary ACHESON. Yes, that would be so.

GAULLIST SUPPORT FOR THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT

Senator HUMPHREY. Just one final question. We read so much in recent days about the coalition with the Gaullists in France, where the new government, the new Prime Minister, is taking-has received some of his support from the Gaullist group in the Chamber of Deputies. Will this have any effect, any appreciable effect, upon the conclusion of the treaty for the European Defense Community or the final statement of that treaty? Will it bring forth new limitations?

Secretary ACHESON. I think that this is one of the problems which has to be surmounted.

As I get what has happened, it is that there has not been a complete support of Rene Mayer by the Gaullists but by some of the Gaullists; is that about right?

Mr. PERKINS. Yes.

Secretary ACHESON. The Gaullist party has shown a tendency to split.

Senator HUMPHREY. I see.

Secretary ACHESON. The more extreme ones have followed de Gaulle's view that he would have no part in any kind of a government until you had a wholly new constitution and a different setup

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. And everything else.

Quite a group have split off from that, and have believed that they can and should work with less extreme governments.

Now, they have all been unhappy about the European army because they go back to the tradition of the French army. Therefore, I think that they will have to have and there will have to be some reassurances to that group which is less extreme than de Gaulle himself. Certain French worries can be met, and the principal ones, I think, are those that I was mentioning to you earlier, and that there is more assurance that there can be a release of certain units, if necessary, for French purposes; that the French officer corps will be dealt with in such a way that if you release a group of the officers in it, it will be the officers that the French Government would want, and the French Government will have some part in selecting.

I think they want more than association by the British in the army. I think those things can be done, and there are one or two others along that line; and I gather from Mayer that he does not expect to renegotiate the treaties.

What he wants is some interpretative protocols which say that this article means, "If we are in trouble we can do this, that and the other thing."

FRENCH ACTION ON EDC

Senator HUMPHREY. In other words, the new Prime Minister is still committed to forwarding the treaties?

Secretary ACHESON. He is, and he has said he will put it before the committee almost immediately, and then it will go forward through committee stages to parliamentary action probably in March.

ELECTION OUTCOMES IN ITALY AND GERMANY

Senator HUMPHREY. What information, if any, do we have on the possibilities of the de Gasperi1 government being elected in Italy, and the same thing with the Christain Democrats, Adenauer government, in Germany?

2

Secretary ACHESON. Well, I should think the chances are very good of de Gasperi continuing. I think he worries that he gets sniped at from both ends, and a thing like this Trieste issue is used by all the people who are against him, who say he is not nationalist enough. They say he does not stand up for Italy vigorously enough, whereas I think he does everything he possibly can to represent Italian interests. But the Communists hit him on the one hand, and the Monarchists and neo-Fascists hit him on the other end on an issue of that sort, but I think he will make it. I think his great worry is that he may not make it with a clear majority.

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes.

Secretary ACHESON. And that would be too bad because then he has to choose who is going to be associated with him, and that is not strengthening him.

So far as Adenauer is concerned, I think that depends on how he comes out with the European army treaty, and how the French come out. If that goes through so that it is all done in a good length of time before the election, I think he will win because I think that the Socialists will adjust themselves to it. They are really carrying on now the tradition of Schumacher rather than the independent judg ment of the present leaders of the Social Democrats.

Senator HUMPHREY. I was going to ask that question, as to whether or not the death of Schumacher had made any appreciable difference, overt difference, in the demonstrations of the Social Democrats.

Secretary ACHESON. It has not made any difference because the memory, the shade, of Schumacher is very long and very strong. and none of his lieutenants likes to be caught making statements which are contrary to what he used to say. But I think time wi!! change that, and I think a thing of this kind in the Bundestag and Bundesrat will change that.

Senator HUMPHREY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sparkman?
Senator SPARK MAN. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, I would like to ask you a few questions. Originally, the Lisbon meeting had been planning on 96 divisions, 9,000 aircraft by 1954. I understood your explanation to be that that will not be accomplished as far as numbers are concerned, but in effectiveness they will be accomplished, is that right?

Secretary ACHESON. The effectiveness of the forces already in existence, and a smaller increment will be accomplished. They will not be able to take the full figures which they were hoping at Lisbon.

1 Alcide de Gasperi, Italian Premier.

Konrad Adenauer, West German Chancellor.

SUPPORT FOR FRANCE IN INDOCHINA

The CHAIRMAN. The Council adopted a resolution complimenting the French in relation to their stand in Indo-China and said, in other words, that it deserved continued support. I think you commented on it, but I think we should be told definitely, so far as possible, as to just what that support envisioned. In other words, will the United States be called upon to do anything more than it is doing at present in Indo-China?

Secretary ACHESON. There has been no

The CHAIRMAN. Commitment.

Secretary ACHESON [continuing]. Commitment of any sort, of any kind. But in all our discussions, what the French are eager to have us do is to increase both the material support, that is, the full physical goods that go out, and to take a larger share in the financial burden.

The latter is an extremely difficult thing to do. We have not devised any way which seems practical to accomplish it.

We have taken a very large part of the burden. I should think that, roughly speaking, about a third of the cost of the operation, aside from the contribution of men itself, is being borne now by the U.S. Government, airplanes and equipment for the first 12 battalions, and I think we have now gotten 24, a lot of supplies, ammunition, and all of that, which is going out in an increasing volume.

Indo-China is second only to Korea in priority of items for military use, and that is the area in which we have been working with the French, and expect to work with them.

RATIFYING THE EDC TREATY

The CHAIRMAN. How many nations up to date have ratified the EDC Treaty?

Secretary ACHESON. At the present time I think it has not been ratified by any of the parliaments. The Italians say that they will proceed with it right away, de Gasperi is going to put it before his Parliament.

The Dutch expect to act on it in March; the Germans hope to get it done by the end of February or the first part of March; the French are putting it into their committee stage now; the Belgians and Luxembourgers will act upon it immediately upon action by France and Germany.

The CHAIRMAN. At the meeting at NATO, the importance of early ratification was stressed, was it not?

Secretary ACHESON. Yes, sir; it was.

The CHAIRMAN. You have already discussed in general terms the situation between France and Germany in relation to the modification of the contracts or arrangements.

Just very quickly, can you tell us what effect that would have on the NATO defense plans, their failing to get anywhere at present, and so forth?

Secretary ACHESON. You mean if it were not ratified?