LAOS AND VIETNAM

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,

Washington, DC.

in

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:45 a.m., room F-53, U.S. Capitol Building, Hon. J.W. Fulbright (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Chairman Fulbright and Senators Sparkman, Morse, Gore, Lausche, Symington, Aiken, and Carlson.

Also present: Mr. Marcy, Mr. Denney, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Newhouse, and Mr. Kuhl of the committee staff.

[John Bartlow Martin appeared on behalf of his nomination to be Ambassador to the Dominican Republic. Abram Chayes, Legal Adviser of the Department of State, reported to the committee on the brief filed with the International Court of Justice in support of the United Nations' power to raise funds through regular and extra assessments.]

The CHAIRMAN. I believe you are going to brief us on Southeast Asia, Mr. Secretary.

STATEMENT OF HON. AVERELL HARRIMAN, ASSISTANT
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FAR EASTERN AFFAIRS

Mr. HARRIMAN. The President thought there might be some questions that the Senators would have about Laos and therefore suggested while you were away, Mr. Chairman, that I meet with you in executive session and discuss any aspect of Laos.

As you all well know, the President's position today is exactly as it was a year ago when he stated that it was his policy to attempt to support a neutral-I think his words are here, "To see Laos live in peace, independent, free of all domination, and be a non-committed country." He a year later said much the same thing: "It is my judgment that it is in the best interests of the country to work for a neutral independent Laos, and we are attempting to do so. I can assure you that I recognize the risks that are involved, but I also think we should consider the risks if we fail, particularly with the possibility of escalation of a military struggle," and so forth.

AGREEMENT REACHED AT GENEVA

In the intervening period-I won't go into detail-I was in Geneva attending the 14-nation conference, and we came to a substantial agreement. There are one or two points left which require the presence of a Laotian Government of national unity to settle,

but I think it is fair to say that we would have come to the conclusion of the Geneva international aspects of the understanding very quickly if there was a government organized, if there were some government.

The agreement is somewhat better than I expected, and I think it is satisfactory considering all of the factors. The problem of the "troika" with the demand for unanimity was one of the subjects we had a good deal of difficulty with, but we composed that to our satisfaction. All matters that were substantive questions, there would be the majority rule which would govern.

There is an important new aspect to the agreement which gives me a good deal of hope for a successful operation under the agreement, and that is that the Soviet Union agreed voluntarily that the co-chairman should undertake to see that the agreement was observed. [Deleted.]

The declaration and the undertakings of the 14 nations are very specific not to interject any foreign troops, not to interfere in the internal affairs, not to use the Laotian territory to interfere in the internal affairs of their neighboring countries.

COMMUNIST COUNTRIES PARTY TO AGREEMENT

The CHAIRMAN. That does not include the Chinese?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Yes, it includes the Chinese. They were present. The CHAIRMAN. Did they agree?

Mr. HARRIMAN. They agreed to it. The agreement so far is tentative. The understanding was that we would agree, we wouldn't be committed until they finally signed their names, but they have agreed to these provisions.

The four Communist countries were present. Of course, the Soviets, the Chinese Peking Government, and North Vietnam. Senator MORSE. It is remarkable.

Mr. HARRIMAN [continuing]. As well as the Poles.

Senator GORE. I didn't understand this about South Vietnam. Mr. HARRIMAN. I said North Vietnam. South Vietnam was present, too.

The four Communist countries were Russia, the Peking Government-Chinese Reds, North Vietnam, and the Poles, who are a member of the International Control Commission which is to supervise and to control the cease-fire and also the carrying out of the agreement.

LAOS PROHIBITED AS BASE FOR OPERATIONS

Among the undertakings was this provision which I speak of, not to use Laos in any way against any other country. I think it was quite clearly recognized, and so stated, that this referred to the use of Laos as a corridor from North Vietnam to South Vietnam. The CHAIRMAN. Is that set out in the agreement? Mr. HARRIMAN. That is in the agreement, yes.

Senator MORSE. It is remarkable.

The CHAIRMAN. And the Chinese, Soviet, and North Vietnamwho was the other one?

Mr. HARRIMAN. The Poles.

The CHAIRMAN. And the Poles.

Mr. HARRIMAN. They are the third member of the International Control Commission, which is chaired by the Indians. The Canadians are the Western member and the Poles are the Communist member.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. HARRIMAN. They are to supervise the carrying out of the agreement, have certain specific powers and authority, and certain limitations, of course.

But in this agreement, all of the 14 nations agreed to withdraw any military personnel they have there, and also keep them out, and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Laos. They declare that Laos shall now be neutral and independent and, as I say, one of the provisions relates to the use of Laos as a base for operations elsewhere. Incidentally, it refers as being interpreted to subversive as well as military action.

WILL NORTH VIETNAM OBSERVE PROVISIONS?

Senator SYMINGTON. I would like to ask two questions. First, when I was out there last fall, the universal opinion was that the North Vietnamese were billeting troops in overt fashion at times in Laos.

Mr. HARRIMAN. Yes, no doubt they were doing that at the beginning, and they have somewhat increased their forces since.

Senator SYMINGTON. Does this mean they will take them out now?

Mr. HARRIMAN. They have undertaken to do so. Whether they do or not, I can't guarantee, but they have undertaken to do so and the Soviet Union has undertaken to see that they carry out this agreement.

Senator SYMINGTON. My final question would be, do you feel that the North Vietnamese will observe this?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I have no impression of North Vietnamese. I have had very little contact with them. I had some contact with Chinese Reds, as a constant contact-and so did the British cochairman, Mr. [Malcolm] MacDonald-with the Soviet representative. I became satisfied that the Soviet Union, Mr. Khrushchev, wanted such an agreement and wanted to see that this agreement was fulfilled, carried through.

Now, how long it will last nobody can tell. Mr. Khrushchev made it very plain, as all Communists have, that sooner or later all of us will come under Soviet dominance.

SOVIETS ARE COMMITTED; OTHERS MAY NOT BE

Every indication was given that Khrushchev wanted an agreement. On several occasions [deleted] of course, but we came to a compromise on situations which composed our differences and on one occasion even settled the affair, the open questions. [Deleted]. Senator GORE. That is the Russian that said it?

Mr. HARRIMAN. That is the Russian. I have no confidence in North Vietnam. They are behaving in a completely aggressive way. Senator GORE. He said this?

Mr. HARRIMAN. This was [deleted].

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. Did [deleted] had no confidence?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I say that.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you said [deleted].

Mr. HARRIMAN. No, I say I have no confidence in North Vietnam nor any confidence in the Red Chinese. But the Soviet Union has agreed to see that they fulfill their obligations. Whether they were able to do it or will do it, I can't guarantee, but it is my judgment that the Soviet Union wanted to come to an agreement in Geneva.

TIMETABLE FOR IMPLEMENTING AGREEMENT

Senator CARLSON. May I inquire how long you would think it would be before we see some effects of this agreement?

Mr. HARRIMAN. The agreement does not come into effect until there is a government of national union. The agreement is based on a coalition government being formed, which is to be known as a government of national union. The three princes who represent the three principal forces in Laos at the present time have been attempting to negotiate and haven't been successful in forming that government.

This government would make a declaration of neutrality which would fit into the international aspects of the agreement which was negotiated in Geneva, so we have nothing unless and until a government of national unity is organized.

This would complete our work, so far as possible, before Christmas, and in the meantime the princes have had varying discussions from talks at Zurich in June to different conversations they have had during the intervening period. They met on February 16, not all of them, but the man who is accepted as the neutral, Prince Souvanna Phouma, was asked by the King to attempt to organize a government including the three factions. He was there in Luang Prabang, which is the royal capital, on the 16th, and is encouraged to continue his efforts.

Senator CARLSON. 16th of what, February?

Mr. HARRIMAN. February, yes. These negotiations have been going on.

DIFFICULTIES IN FORMING GOVERNMENT

It is pretty hard to get people who have been fighting a civil war to come together on a government. There is general acceptance of the idea that the two wings, the Pathet Lao, which are Chinesedominated, and the present government, should have certain representation. There should be a strong center built around those who have been independent, supposedly, of both sides in this conflictor rather, between the Pathet Lao and the present Laotian Government.

Now, there is agreement in principle, but they have not been able to come to agreement on the portfolios that each side would have. That is where the discussions have been bogging down.

I thought that it would be important for you to realize that we have been attempting to get the Royal Laotian Government to accept the principles of this agreement, and we are having some difficulty getting General Phoumi, who is the dominating force in this government-Prince Bon Oum is the Prime Minister, but General Phoumi is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defense,