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tariat, and there I think you could break out a large number of issues on which they disagreed with them.

Senator AIKEN. They would stand by us so many times when countries that were supposed to be close friends went over the hill.

INCIDENT AT DIPLOMATIC GATHERING

Mr. KENNAN. Senator, let me tell you something that happened the other day. I think this could go on the record.

I was a guest, as all of us diplomats were, of Tito at a hunting party, shooting party, up in the country. In the middle of the evening, he came over and fetched me and sat me down next to him at the table. A couple of his leading figures were sitting there. As soon as all the Soviet bloc Ambassadors saw that, they crowded around because they were curious to hear what would go on between us. The Soviet Ambassador sat right across the table, and the Soviet Ambassador started in with the usual Soviet propaganda line about American militarism and how we were preparing for

war.

Tito, to my surprise, said to him, in effect-we were not talking English, so I cannot give you the exact words-but he said, "You pipe down," and he said, "These people are not going to make war on you if you don't make war on them."

Senator WILEY. Tito said that?

Mr. KENNAN. Yes, to the Soviet Ambassador. He took me under his protection at this moment, and this is the curious relationship we have with these people.

NOT BAD TO DEAL WITH

Now, I can only say that Tito and I have disagreed, and he said to me that same evening, "I sometimes blame myself for not having told you more frankly or more bluntly in private conversations my own views. You wouldn't have been so shocked when I said them at the Belgrade Conference."

I mean, he is not a bad man to deal with. He is not on our side in the ideological sense. He still considers himself a Socialist and a Marxian Socialist, but he is not what he is often described as being, a thug.

I have found him an acceptable person to deal with, and always courteous and nice in his capacity as a host, a man with whom you can have your differences, but whom you must respect.

Senator AIKEN. I found the Yugoslav representative on the Fifth Committee to the United Nations one of the most cooperative, cordial, and apparently one who would go along with the United States, of any of the members of that Committee.

He could not always do it, and I suppose he had instructions to vote against us. But certainly I would not ask for anybody better to work with.

WORTH WORKING ON

Mr. KENNAN. This is just it. It is my impression that the extreme Leninist-Marxist prejudice, by which this Yugoslav regime was

originally inspired, is a dying thing. This is why I want to see us be a little patient with these people.

I do not want to see us shower them with aid, and the sooner that anything that can be called aid, unequal aid, stops with that country, the happier I will be. I hope this will not be more than 3 or 4 years.

But I do want to see us continue to keep our hand in there. I want to see us continue to talk to these people, to argue with them, to point out where we think they are wrong, to point out the advantages that they could have from a really proper association with the West; in other words, I think they are are worth working

on.

WEST GERMAN-YUGOSLAV TRADE

Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator HUMPHREY. Speaking about trade, do the West Germans trade with the Yogoslavs?

Mr. KENNAN. They do, indeed. They are one of the two greatest trading partners the Yugoslavs have.

Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Ambassador, the one thing I found out in my journeys is that we are always being lectured by people about not trading with these Russians, and not trading with these Communists, and not trading with these people, and so on.

I was in Germany, and I was told by some of their leading officials and by their newspapers how we were being sort of soft on communism in the very same week that 50,000 troops were landing, the same time that the Germans were letting their draft act expire because they did not even have a government organized, at the very same time they were stepping up their trade in every conceivable way.

I am not angry about their doing it. I just feel sort of like India when Nehru lectures us on aggression. I do not like to be lectured by some of the most eminent and most active business people in the world on the subject of trade.

It just so happens I sat in Poland and woke up one morning and there were 11 new cars in front of the Bristol Hotel, brand new vehicles, seven Mercedes-Benz and two Czechs. I had only been given 2 days before a lecture on how we were being rather confused about Berlin and confused about this Communist menace and confused about communism, et cetera.

I found out in talking to the Polish officials that the West Germans were selling things over there left and right on credits, every conceivable way.

U.S. TRADE SHOULD BE STEPPED UP

We have a law called the Johnson Act that denies us the opportunity to even do business on credit in Poland, even though they paid.

Do the Yugoslavs pay the West Germans for their goods?

Mr. KENNAN. They do.

Senator HUMPHREY. They would pay us, too, wouldn't they?

Mr. KENNAN. Yes. They do pay for what they get on regular trade.

Senator HUMPHREY. Isn't it possible to step up that regular trade?

Mr. KENNAN. I hope very much that it can be stepped up. I think the answer to their problem is increased trade and not aid. The CHAIRMAN. Not aid.

Mr. KENNAN. But I think that-well, if you like I will tell you where we stand with aid.

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes.

LIQUIDATION OF ASSISTANCE

Mr. KENNAN. At the time I came there last spring, we were giving these people surplus food, a technical assistance program, and making loans for long-term industrial development through private agencies. We were giving school lunches to about 70 percent of the Yugoslav school children, and through another private agency we were giving food parcels to all sorts of people, to pensioners who did not get more than a certain amount of pension, and what not.

Well, today these private programs are in process of liquidation. Senator CAPEHART. What do you mean by private?

Mr. KENNAN. Through CARE and Church World Service, the school lunch programs and this sort of thing.

I do not see any reason why we should be doing this for them. They are a socialist state. They pride themselves on their social services, and they ought perfectly well to be able to feed their schoolchildren at noon.

If they want to get another 10,000 or 20,000 tons of surplus grain to do this from us, I would rather do it that way than have us involved in it.

These programs are going to be folded up. The technical assistance is going to be only on a nominal scale this year, and I have reserved the right myself, if things go through the way I hope they will in our Government, to make a study on this to decide whether they want it any more, I am not too enthusiastic about it.

The surplus food I have, for the reasons I outlined before the committee a few moments ago, favored giving them a grant this year, and I shall probably do it next year because of the effects of the drought. I do not want to put this country in the position of exploiting a natural catastrophe and choosing a bad moment for cutting off this form of aid.

U.S. LETS OTHERS SERVE OWN PURPOSES

Senator CAPEHART. Mr. Ambassador, is it not a fact that we permit every other nation in the world to tell us what we should do and what we should not do, as they please, when it serves their own purpose to do it?

Mr. KENNAN. I think I could not disagree with you on that, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Wiley would like to ask the Ambassador a question.

APPRAISAL OF U.S. POLICY

Senator WILEY. I can remember a few years ago when General [Walter Bedell] Smith-what was he, ambassador over there?

Mr. KENNAN. He was Ambassador in the Soviet Union, sir. Senator WILEY. I asked him at that time about Tito. This was a matter I wanted to ask you.

First, I want to get your idea as to what the condition of the Soviet Union is. What is the impact of Molotov,' who came up with blood in his eyes, apparently going back south to handle things? What is the situation, in your judgment, in the Soviet Union?

Before you answer that, General Smith said to me that, in his opinion, it was wise that we were doing what we were doing with Tito, that Tito was boss man down there, and that he was one fellow that spoke up to the Kremlin.

I do not know anything about it. In other words, Tito was in a position geographically that, if war did come, would be a very significant piece of property that would not be in the hands of the Soviets; that through it they could dominate the Mediterranean, and so forth. I remember that distinctly.

General Smith died a few months ago, but he was a pretty levelheaded fellow.

Is it your idea that what we have been doing is because in our opinion it is in the best interests of preserving the peace, and that if we do not do something that we may precipitate a war or let the balloon go up there and precipitate war?

Now, there are three or four questions in there. You can take them the way you want to.

TERRITORY KEPT FROM SOVIET HANDS

Mr. KENNAN. Well, I agree with what General Smith said. I think it has been, in general, a sound policy for us to try to keep this territory out of Soviet hands and keep it under the control of a government which, although it calls itself socialist, is at least not under Soviet domination.

Senator WILEY. Have we done it?

Mr. KENNAN. We have done it so far, and I think it is a good thing to try to see to it that Soviet-controlled arms are not in possession of this highly strategic territory. If they were in there again we would have them on the borders of Greece; we would have them on the borders of Italy. We would have them along the Adriatic Coast, and I think we are better off to have a state there which, even though it sounds-

RUSSIAN PRESENCE IN YUGOSLAVIA, OTHER NATIONS

Senator CAPEHART. Are there any Soviet troops in Yugoslavia? Mr. KENNAN. No, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. Are there any Russians of any kind?

Mr. KENNAN. No, sir. There are far more Americans than Russians, and I am convinced that they would try to defend themselves if the Russians took after them.

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There is one thing that you cannot accuse the Yugoslavs of, and that is lack of courage. They are mountaineers, and they are as tough and game a people as any that exist in Europe, and they are wonderful fighters.

Senator CAPEHART. But Russia does have troops and a lot of people in the other countries over there, like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Rumania?

Mr. KENNAN. She has garrisons in several other satellite countries, not in all of them. That is, I do not believe there are officially Russian garrisons in Czechoslovakia. They may chisel on this, and there may be some Soviet units in there under special arrangements.

Senator CAPEHART. They do not need them in there; they are just as tough as the Russians.

Mr. KENNAN. But they have troops in Hungary, Poland, and in Rumania I believe they have the right to have them.

I think they have certain air and naval facilities in Bulgaria. I am not aware that they have garrisons of land forces in Bulgaria. I would have to look this up.

ALBANIA'S BREAK WITH THE SOVIETS

Senator CAPEHART. In Albania do they have any?

Mr. KENNAN. They had a naval base in Albania. They withdrew it last April.

They had a row with the Albanians when they withdrew, over whether they could withdraw all the submarines there, and the best information I have is that the Albanians insisted on keeping two of them.

Senator HUMPHREY. But under Albanian control?

Mr. KENNAN. They still have them, under Albanian control. The base has been evacuated by the Russians.

So far as I am aware, and I made considerable efforts to run this down and find out, there are no Russians left at the base. I cannot find out, though, whether the Russians ever abandoned their legal claim to this base under the lease that they had. I cannot tell you that.

Senator SYMINGTON. A submarine base?

Mr. KENNAN. Submarine base.

Senator SPARKMAN. Albania has broken diplomatic relations. Mr. KENNAN. They have broken with the Soviet Union very definitely.

Senator SPARKMAN. So they would not recognize the claim now. Mr. KENNAN. It was in anticipation of this break that the Russians pulled their vessels out of there.

RUSSIAN OVERTURES TOWARD YUGOSLAVIA

Senator HUMPHREY. Do you think Mr. Khrushchev has made any success in his recent wooing of Yugoslavs?

Mr. KENNAN. No. I think that the impediments to any overcoming of the break between the Yugoslavs and the Soviet Union cannot be overcome at the present time.

You see, there are two possibilities there. If you try to talk about overcoming this break between the two countries, it could be over

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