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come on Khrushchev's terms or it could be overcome on Tito's terms.

Tito's terms would be that they recognized his independence and his right to have his own path to socialism, as it is called, his own social system, which would be different from that of the Soviet Union. In my opinion, Khrushchev cannot grant this because if he did every other satellite country would want the same thing right away, and it would lead to the dissolution of the satellite area.

Now, that is what would happen if the breach were to be healed on Tito's terms.

If it were to be healed on Khrushchev's terms that is, that Yugoslavia would again accept the discipline of the bloc, why, this is something I cannot see Tito doing. The man has gone through the most tremendous risks and exertions for 14 years to establish this independence, and he has already let his system get very significantly different from that of the Soviet Union.

If he were to come back on Khrushchev's terms, he would have to change the entire economic system in Yugoslavia, re-impose the Stalinist controls, and re-impose the complete nationalization of industry. It is my judgment he could not do this except at the cost of tremendous discontent and bewilderment in his own party.

TITO'S SUCCESSION

The CHAIRMAN. Who is going to be his successor? What do you predict now?

Mr. KENNAN. He has two assistants, one of whom would be his successor. One is a man by the name of Kardelj, and the other is a man by the name of Rankovic. They are both old members of the Yugoslav party.

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Like Tito, they were both at one time Communist Stalinists. I think they have learned a good deal.

Kardelj is a man I have seen and talked to. He is what you might call a Marxist intellectual, but not a bad sort of a man; again, very decent and even charming in personal intercourse.

Rankovic is the man who runs the police system. He is a much harder sort of man, and no theorist, and I do not believe he will take over the state, if it is possible.

REACTION TO CUBAN SITUATION

Senator CAPEHART. Let me ask you one question: What was the reaction to the Cuban situation over there?

Mr. KENNAN. Extremely bad, that is, unfair to us, and violent. Senator CAPEHART. In what way?

Mr. KENNAN. Violently against what we did and, I think, unjust. I would resent it again if it were to happen today. I would have resented it had I been there at that time. I had not arrived there when this occurred.

Senator CAPEHART. The reaction was that we were all wrong?
Mr. KENNAN. The reaction was that we were all wrong.

On the other hand, since that time the Yugoslavs have been trying to get on with their Cuban friends, and I have the impres

Edvard Kardelj and Aleksandar Rankovic, vice presidents of Yugoslavia.

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sion they found it pretty difficult and they are rather fed up with these people themselves. So again, sometimes it is worth waiting to see how things work out.

ATTRIBUTION OF AMERICAN ASSISTANCE

Senator AIKEN. The government does not make any effort, does it, to prevent Yugoslav people from knowing that assistance comes from the United States?

Mr. KENNAN. They have not been as forthcoming as I would have liked to have seen, and this is one reason why I am glad to see these private programs starting in the process of liquidation, which they are. Those are the private agencies like CARE and Church Service. I do not think they have given us enough credit for that.

Senator AIKEN. Twelve years ago I think they honestly told their people, "We got the help from the United States," and they were quite conspicuous for that reason among the nations that got it.

Mr. KENNAN. I must say this: Every time we sign a contract with them for surplus food, they have pictures taken of it, and they put it in the paper, and everyone in the country knows about it. Senator AIKEN. That is what I mean.

Mr. KENNAN. And the people are well aware that a lot of their bread is coming from the United States.

Senator AIKEN. Even so, some of these private agencies are giving aid to some countries over in that general area that never reaches the people at all. I do not think Yugoslavia is one of these.

Mr. KENNAN. But I was not satisfied with the way the food was being distributed through the private agencies. I did not think we got enough credit for it. In fact, I found a lot of senior Yugoslav people who did not seem to know about it.

PURCHASE OF BRAZILIAN NEWSPAPER

Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Ambassador, are you aware of the fact that the Yugoslavs have purchased a large newspaper in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil?

Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I do not know.

Senator HUMPHREY. Well, they have. I cannot remember the name. I have the name of it.

The CHAIRMAN. In Rio?

Senator HUMPHREY. In Rio.

The CHAIRMAN. The government bought it?

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes; I just wondered if you have any indication of that.

Senator AIKEN. I thought Brazil does not let them-

Senator HUMPHREY. A private entrepreneur sold it to the govern

ment.

The CHAIRMAN. To the government? I never heard of that.

Mr. KENNAN. I know they have been very much interested in what is going on down there. As a matter of fact, I have had, I would say, more trouble as Ambassdor in Yugoslavia over the activities of the Yugoslavs with regard to these unaligned nations than I have over their relations with the Soviet Union.

I am quite satisfied about their relations with the Soviet Union. I know they cannot overcome this break.

Senator AIKEN. Is that over-population that is prompting interest in Brazil, for instance?

The CHAIRMAN. What is the explanation?

Senator HUMPHREY. There is a large Yugoslav population in Brazil down in the Sao Paulo area.

GREEK CONCERNS

I talked with Prime Minister Karamanlis--
Mr. KENNAN. In Greece.

Senator HUMPHREY. Right after the election, I went over to his apartment one night and spent the evening with him, and he was very much concerned about our relationship with Yugoslavia. He told me very frankly that if I were to see you or to see the Secretary of State or anybody, how terribly important it was that our relationship be maintained on a most friendly basis.

The CHAIRMAN. With Yugoslavia?

Senator HUMPHREY. With Yugoslavia. They had a lot of trouble, of course, just prior to the elections with the Bulgarians near the frontier. This helped, by the way-he could not understand why it happened-because it helped his government win an overwhelming victory and cut the Communist vote down very appreciably in Greece.

Karamanlis expressed to me, No. 1, a very deep concern over our relationships with Yugoslavia, because some of these reports had indicated, on this airplane deal and others, problems with the Congress. Second, he told me, "I hope you are watching most carefully what is happening in Turkey," and this is my question. Have you seen Ray Hare lately?

Mr. KENNAN. No, sir; I have not.

Senator HUMPHREY. Do you get much information in Belgrade about what is happening in Turkey?

Mr. KENNAN. Not reliable information. We get what is in the Yugoslav press.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by this? What are you getting at?

[Discussion off the record.]9

SINO-SOVIET RELATIONS

The CHAIRMAN. This is a little off the subject, and I know it is getting late, but you are an old hand in this field. Would you very briefly give me your assessment of the present Soviet-Chinese relations? This is not quite in your line of business, but I know you are a student on this subject.

I have asked you this before. What is your present view about it? Mr. KENNAN. Well, the break has gotten even deeper since I was at this table last time.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. KENNAN. And, in my opinion, it is going to be practically impossible to overcome it now.

"No transcript was made of "off the record" discussions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you visualize this becoming somewhat similar to the relationship between Tito and Russia?

Mr. KENNAN. Yes, although it will have different aspects because these are both two great countries, and the Chinese are not the same as the Yugoslavs. But it is going to be that sort of a break, I think, eventually.

U.S. ROLE IN MATTER

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any thing we can do to encourage or promote this break?

Mr. KENNAN. I think the less we insert ourselves into this, and the more we keep our mouths shut-

The CHAIRMAN. That is good advice.

Mr. KENNAN [continuing]. The greater the break will become.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I want to know. In other words, we ought not to talk about it, say much more about it, is this right? Mr. KENNAN. Yes. The less we crow over it——

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean.

Mr. KENNAN [continuing]. The better it will be from our standpoint.

Senator SPARKMAN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know, your judgment on that. But it is a serious doctrinal difference, is that right? Mr. KENNAN. Oh, extremely serious.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it?

Mr. KENNAN. Yes, sir; and it is also a power contest in the good old-fashioned sense between two great neighboring nations who have rival ambitions throughout Asia.

Senator AIKEN. Will the time ever come when Russia might enlist our aid against the Chinese?

Mr. KENNAN. In certain ways I think they would already like to have it, but they do not know how to ask for it.

YUGOSLAVIA IS WORTH A STRUGGLE

Senator, now that I have heard these questions around the table, there is one thing I would like to say in amplification of the remarks I made just at the beginning.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Mr. KENNAN. And that is this: that the Yugoslavs are not an easy problem for us. There is a great deal there which is irritating that goes on in Yugoslavia. There are many things that happen there that are a burden on our relations, are hard for an ambassador to take.

But after 8 months there, I come away with a conviction which, I believe, was shared by every one of my predecessors there, without exception, namely, that it is worthwhile continuing the struggle for these people's respect, and I would not say for their affections because I do not believe in affection in international affairs, but the struggle for their orientation.

I do not think we can bring them entirely over to the Western side in the sense that the members of NATO are part of the Western camp. But I think that, by and large, the direction of development over the last years has been in our favor, and that for this

reason it is worth being patient, not being submissive. I do not mean that.

EXTREME STATEMENTS NO REASON TO GIVE UP

I feel that it is very essential to tell them where you disagree with them, and to hold them to their responsibilities for moderation and accuracy of statement, to keep after them in this way, and to argue with them. I believe I have done that as much as any ambassador in Belgrade since I have been there.

But I do want to emphasize we do not-we should not give up the fight. We should not resign them to the opposite camp just because they irritate us with their statements, you see.

Many Americans, if I take the temper of this country, have gotten so irritated by these statements, and fed up, that they say, "Well, let's wash our hands of them and tell them that if they want to, to go back to Moscow." I do not agree with this.

Senator AIKEN. Have those statements made by Tito been made by others than himself?

Mr. KENNAN. The statements made by other people have been much more moderate and, quite frankly, I have not talked to a single senior Yugoslav who has not tried to intimate to me that he was sorry such extreme things were said, and felt that we should not get too excited about it. So I feel we have something to hang onto.

NO COUNTRY IS IRREVOCABLY COMMUNIST

The CHAIRMAN. What you are saying is in complete accord with what the President said this morning. We should never give up. Senator HUMPHREY. Exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. That any country is not irrevocably an enemy and a Communist, they are worth worrying about, is that not correct?

Mr. KENNAN. This is true, and the position we have there today is vastly preferable to what it would be if this were still under Soviet control. I do not think we should forfeit this by getting petulant or reacting emotionally to things.

Now, this does not mean tolerating without objection outrageous statements on their part.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. KENNAN. And I do not believe this for a minute. I believe in going right back at them every time they say anything we think we can take exception to and making it a matter of record, why we think they are wrong, and keeping after this.

AID IS NOT SO IMPORTANT

But I would not give up the struggle, and I do not think aid is so important here. The Yugoslavs themselves, as proud people, do not want to take this any longer than they have to.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they getting along pretty well?

Mr. KENNAN. Fairly well. They have troubles this year by virtue mostly of the drought, but they do not want to take any, any longer than they have to.

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