Mr. NOLTING. Australia, Britain, China, Japan, Malaya.
Senator SPARKMAN. What about the Philippines?

Senator WILEY. That is important. Now what is that support? Is it manpower, materiel?

Mr. NOLTING. And Germany. I just named another one, excuse

me.

Senator WILEY. Yes.

Mr. NOLTING. It is in various fields. Australia is helping in the agricultural field, and they have recently come in to ask what more they can do and we are coordinating something that they can do in addition. Germany has given a loan of 50 million marks, mainly for the development of the coal deposits in central Vietnam. Britain has sent a training mission of experts from Malaya headed by Mr. Thompson, who is very good indeed. The French are continuing their educational program and are backing us, so far as I can determine, in Hanoi, completely in our program to sustain the country, but they are not going to send any forces, I am sure. Senator FULBRIGHT. Hanoi? You mean Saigon?

Mr. NOLTING. Did I say Hanoi? Excuse me, I meant Saigon.

The Japanese are building a hydroelectric dam and power line, which is a part of their reparations, but they are helping in this. The Chinese are helping to develop the textile industry. The Canadians are helping diplomatically through their representative on the ICC,3 who is doing an excellent job on our side, but under great difficulties. The Philippines have made noises about wanting to help, but so far as I know nothing has been contributed.

I think in general that the free world, our allies, are wising up to the fact that this is a struggle that involves them, or at least in which they have an interest, and are not leaving it totally to us. But we are still very much the horse in this horse and rabbit stew.

EQUIPMENT, MONEY AND MANPOWER

Senator LAUSCHE. Then to summarize, the aid is by way of equipment and money, but not manpower.

Mr. NOLTING. And people.

Senator LAUSCHE. And people.

Mr. NOLTING. And advisers.

Senator LAUSCHE. Advisers.

Mr. NOLTING. Yes.

Senator LAUSCHE. No military?

Mr. NOLTING. No military.

Senator SPARKMAN. Except the group from Malaya.

Mr. NOLTING. They are advisers.

Senator SPARKMAN. Guerrilla tactics, isn't it?

Mr. NOLTING. Anti-guerrilla advisers. I also might mention that the Australians put in some military hardware, as did the Malayans, but that is small compared to what we have put in.

Senator WILEY. If the allies are spending all that effort, there ought to be, it seems to me, a military effort that could squash the so-called effort of the north.

'International Control Commission.

Mr. NOLTING. The trouble is that the enemy is very elusive. He doesn't concentrate and you can't hit him in any size. This is a termiting operation with small groups, and you can hit a lot of small groups but you don't kill very many people while you are doing it. It takes an awful lot of forces to do this.

ROLE OF THE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE

Senator WILEY. Are the Vietnamese people themselves willing to fight? Are they organizing? Are they training? Are they forming guerrilla groups? In other words, have we gotten into a position were we are providing our allies all the help-economic, military, and everything else-and these other people are sitting back doing nothing, or what is the situation?

Mr. NOLTING. The Vietnamese people?

Senator WILEY. Yes.

Mr. NOLTING. A great many of them are fighting very courageously, and they are losing about 2,000 people a month. There are areas, however, where the people are afraid to fight. I am talking about the peasants in the countryside. Because if they put up a fight, they would be killed before reinforcements could reach them. So in general I think that there is the will and determination to fight, but protection must be afforded in order to give, in certain localities, sufficient chance for this will to be exercised.

Senator WILEY. No further questions.
Senator LAUSCHE. Senator Carlson.

HARNESSING VIETNAMESE RIVERS

Senator CARLSON. Mr. Ambassador, you mentioned this hydroelectric power project on the part of the Japanese. That is the Mekong River, is it not, that goes down through Saigon?

Mr. NOLTING. No Senator, it is a powerplant, a hydroelectric plant.

Senator CARLSON. What is the name of the river that goes into Saigon?

Mr. NOLTING. It is the Saigon River, and below that is the Mekong that comes all the way from China.

Senator CARLSON. It is further down?

Mr. NOLTING. Through Laos and Cambodia.

Senator CARLSON. I visited that section in 1958. If I remember correctly, there were several nations, including the United States, who had a commission studying the possibilities of using that river for great public service, flood protection and many other features. Is this project a part of that, do you know?

Mr. NOLTING. The Japanese project is not connected with that at all. The other is the United Nations project which is still in the planning stage.

Senator CARLSON. Still in the planning stage?

Mr. NOLTING. Yes, sir. They haven't even begun construction. It is a very large project.

WORK OF THE TECHNICIANS

Senator CARLSON. You mentioned the technicians that we are getting from the other nations. What about our own technicians? Do we have a number of technicians in this area, a substantial number?

Mr. NOLTING. We have a very substantial number in many fields. Senator CARLSON. What is some of the work that the technicians are doing or assisting in?

Mr. NOLTING. Engineers, road building, canal and bridge building, people putting up communication lines, public health technicians, anti-malaria spraying teams, educators for schools and so forth, training of administrators and some administration specialists, police trainers-this is all on the civil side. Then we have on the military side some others-training of police, agricultural specialists, land development specialists. Fisheries is another one. There are a great many. I am sure I haven't named them all. On the military side, if I may complete this, we have specialists, military men training in all branches of anti-guerrilla warfare.

Senator CARLSON. I share the views of the Senator from Alabama as to the importance of retaining our position in saving this country if we are to keep our interest in the Far East. I think all of us on this committee who heard General Williams, who testified here on several occasions, and with whom I had the pleasure of meeting and observing some of the fine work he did in training some of the local organization in the military program, were impressed. I gather from your statement that he conducted a training program, however, that was not the type of training program that was really needed in that area? Is that a correct assumption from what you have stated?

Mr. NOLTING. I didn't intend to imply any criticism.

Senator CARLSON. This is not a criticism, but the wrong type of program.

GUERRILLA ACTIVITY IN SOUTH VIETNAM

Mr. NOLTING. I think it met what was, perhaps, the need at that time. The guerrilla activity in South Vietnam had not begun then. The great danger was an attack in force from the north by an army that was well trained and that had been fighting for 6 years against the French. Forces were developed in the south to stand off that kind of an attack, and this was to my mind sensible and necessary at the time. The Communists, however, decided to mount a different kind of attack, and this is a guerrilla attack, and so training and organization had to be tailored to that. This is what is going on now:

Senator CARLSON. If I follow your statement, then, we can expect this same type of campaign to continue and maybe expand for some time to come?

Mr. NOLTING. The guerrilla?

Senator CARLSON. Guerrilla type of warfare.

Mr. NOLTING. It depends, Senator, on how successful we are in resisting it and how costly we make it for them.

Senator CARLSON. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

COMPARISON OF LAOS AND VIETNAM

Senator LAUSCHE. A year ago on February 2, Mr. Brown testified here and he said:

I think that Laos is a very key place in Southeast Asia. As I say, both from the point of view of the physical fact that is a neutral, independent and free from Communist influence, it acts as sort of a cordon sanitaire between the Communists in the south and the Cambodians and South Vietnam.

He took the position that that was a key place. You take the position that South Vietnam is the key to the whole southeast, is that correct? Both of them are, in effect.

Senator SPARKMAN. All three.

Mr. NOLTING. Yes.

Senator LAUSCHE. All three. Will you answer?

Mr. NOLTING. I think that Vietnam is not exclusively the key, but I think it has been always more of a target and more valuable to the Communists than Laos has been, because it has more in it. Senator LAUSCHE. Mr. Brown pointed out in this testimony that if Laos went, there would be the west flank exposed and there would be infiltration from Laos into South Vietnam.

Mr. NOLTING. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. That has occurred, hasn't it?

Mr. NOLTING. It has occurred and is occurring.

Senator LAUSCHE. Has the situation in South Vietnam deteriorated since the unstable condition developed in Laos? Mr. NOLTING. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. So there is a relationship between those two situations?

Mr. NOLTING. Without question.

ROLE OF SOUVANNA PHOUMA

4

Senator LAUSCHE. When Mr. Brown was here a year ago, I questioned him about Souvanna Phouma, and I questioned him about coalition governments. This was the question:

Senator LAUSCHE. Is that what you hear with respect to Phouma, that while he is stating that he is a neutralist, he represents a neutralist government, the end will be an absorption by the Communists in Laos?

Mr. BROWN. That was our concern with Souvanna Phouma.

Senator LAUSCHE. And that is why you felt that Phouma should not be allowed to continue?

Mr. BROWN. That is why we did not feel that he would be a good government. That is my view.

Now I want to ask you the question. What do you know about Souvanna Phouma, who is now being put in as the head man in Laos?

Mr. NOLTING. Senator, I can honestly say that I don't know enough about him for my testimony to be of any value. I have never met him. I have never talked with him.

Senator LAUSCHE. Has he been in touch with the man in South Vietnam, with the infiltrators?

Mr. NOLTING. Not that I know of.

* Prince Souvanna Phouma, former premier of Laos who would again head a coalition government in June 1962.

Senator LAUSCHE. Had you ever heard discussions challenging the reliability of Souvanna Phouma?

Mr. NOLTING. Yes.

Senator LAUSCHE. Where did you hear them?

Mr. NOLTING. In many places, but I can speak principally from my experience in Vietnam.

Senator LAUSCHE. Did you speak with the Vietnamese Government?

Mr. NOLTING. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. What did they say about Souvanna Phouma? [Discussion off the record.]

Senator LAUSCHE. I think that is all that I want to ask at this time.

AN AMERICAN SOLDIER OF FORTUNE

Senator MORSE. I have three matters I want to raise very quickly.

Have you ever heard of a man that might be described as an American soldier of fortune operating in Southeast Asia, by the name of Colonel Stroud, who apparently is closely associated with a Chinese woman by the name of Miss Lam, who is supposed to be a member of the Sun family?

Mr. NOLTING. I don't know him, Senator Morse. I don't know of him.

Senator MORSE. I won't take any more time other than to raise this point. I would like to have someone in the State Department, also someone in the CIA, give us a rundown on this man Stroud. Mr. NOLTING. S-t-r-o-u-d?

Senator MORSE. S-t-r-o-u-d. He is apparently an American soldier of fortune, who apparently involves himself in a good many matters involving Laos and, I think, South Vietnam. Dr. Marcy and I have some information on him, but he is in action again, and I think it is about time that this committee is informed as to what the State Department and the CIA know about him.

AMERICANS KILLED OR WOUNDED IN VIETNAM

Second, Mr. Ambassador, how many Americans have been killed or wounded thus far in the guerrilla warfare in Vietnam?

Mr. NOLTING. Since the beginning, Senator? I am not sure I could give you the number. Recently one sergeant has been killed, one kidnapped, and a USOM engineer was killed about a week ago. A MAAG trainer was shot in the leg about a month ago. He has recovered.

I think before the death of Sergeant Davis, the one who was killed recently, no military man on our side, no American, had been killed for about a year and a half.

Senator MORSE. If we have, as you have testified, some 2,000 American military personnel in South Vietnam, and if they are going to be very effective in helping the South Vietnamese in conducting military operations against the guerrillas, they are bound to come in increasingly close proximity to the line of action, aren't they?

Mr. NOLTING. Yes, sir.