The question of seating with respect to those assessments can cut off at any time that the World Court gives its decision, and the General is prepared to take a look at it.

The same principle would apply to the U.N. bond issue. But the U.N. bond issue money will not be used to bail out the Soviet Union and others on their past due assessments under existing resolution.

There are two ways in which the Soviet Union could lose its vote: First, by not paying the past assessments, if the Court finds it, and, second, by refusing for enough years to pay its assessments for the bond issue so as to build up to-

Senator AIKEN. Doesn't the timing of the bond issue have something to do about that? If they rush the bond issue through, the Soviets would be taken off the hook. If you wait until after they are eligible to lose their vote, and with a favorable decision from the Court, you have another situation.

Secretary RUSK. I do not believe the Soviets would be taken off the hook. I think the United Nations, in its cash position, would be taken off the hook temporarily.

SOVIETS MUST STOP ROBBING THE PIGGY BANK

Senator AIKEN. Have you advised them that we are not going to pay our shares into Children's Fund until they stop robbing the piggy bank? Have you told them that? I have heard through the grapevine that you have already advised them you are not going to pay our assessment.

Secretary RUSK. We will press them very hard. We cannot continue to put in contributions to special funds if they are simply going to be borrowed temporarily for the Congo operations. This is one of the reasons we are trying to get this matter settled, so that the funds that the United Nations has been holding can be used for the purposes for which they were put there. I will have to check on the exact language, but we did speak to them quite strongly about this problem we have about borrowing from existing funds.

Senator AIKEN. I heard it referred to as borrowing from the piggy bank to get the old man a bottle of whiskey.

COULD BOND ISSUE DEPRIVE SOVIETS OF VOTE?

Senator SYMINGTON. I would like to rephrase my question on this. If we vote for the bonds, then the bonds are given to the United Nations as part of the debt, is it possible under the rules of the United Nations that arbitrarily we can assign to the Soviet Union, already back on its payments to the United Nations, that additional amount which would be their share of the bond issue, and if we do that, can we deprive them of their vote in case they refuse to pay?

Secretary RUSK. If the Soviet Union refuses to pay its already existing assessments which it has so far refused to pay, that runs into a total now of, shall we say, roughly $30 million. That means that quite apart from the bond issue-

Senator SYMINGTON. I understand that.

Secretary RUSK. If the World Court decides, as we expect it to, that these are obligations under that article of the Charter, then

when the obligations of the Soviet Union exceed 3 years' dues, then their vote is at hazard.

The General Assembly would have to do something about it.

In the case of the bond issue, if the Soviets cleared the record of these assessments, the build-up annually of this problem would be somewhat less, at a slower rate. If a particular government said: Here are my dues but I am subtracting from it that portion of my assessment which would pay these U.N. bonds, then it would be spread over the time. That would be such a slower build-up of the crisis, you see, of the issue.

We do believe, however, that with the finding of the Court and the bond issue that France, Belgium, and certainly the Latin American countries, which have been deficient on it, will join the party, and the issue will concentrate on the Soviet bloc.

U.S.S.R. NOT LIKELY TO QUIT U.N.

Senator LAUSCHE. One step farther: What if you say, "You can't vote," and the Soviet Union said, "Good enough, then we will step out," what then?

Secretary RUSK. That is the issue the Soviet Union will have to face up to. We are not at all convinced that the Soviet Union would abandon that forum in New York over a financial transaction of that sort. They would find some method of finding money.

Senator LAUSCHE. You have given thought to that?
Secretary RUSK. Yes.

BOND ISSUE FINANCING

Senator SPARKMAN. Let me ask a question, in trying to clarify that bond issue question. How is the bond issue to be financed, and is the interest deferred or is it payable year by year?

Secretary RUSK. The annual repayments will contain both interest and principal.

Senator SPARKMAN. Does that start immediately?
Secretary RUSK. It starts immediately.

Senator SPARKMAN. In other words, I thought I gathered this from Senator Aiken's statement, that some people believe it would defer it for 25 years or whatever the length of time was.

Secretary RUSK. No. These are repayable▬▬

Senator SPARKMAN. In other words, you start retiring them immediately, interest and principal?

Secretary RUSK. In 25 annual installments.

Senator SPARKMAN. Yes.

Senator HUMPHREY. That is affixed to your regular general assessment?

Secretary RUSK. It is an intimate part of it, organic part of annual assessments, in which our share is 32 percent instead of what amounts now to some 60 percent.

USE AND SOURCE OF FUNDS

Senator CAPEHART. I have two consecutive questions here: No. 1, is the $200 million to be immediately paid out on past indebtedness?

Secretary RUSK. That would depend upon what success the United Nations has in collecting some of these past assessments. Senator CAPEHART. Now, the other question: Does the United Nations at the moment have $200 million of unpaid bills?

Secretary RUSK. No, sir. It has in actual unpaid bills-I have that figure here, Senator-I believe its actual unpaid bills are running about $60 million.

Senator CAPEHART. They only owe $60 million, so we pay $60 million of the $200 million, and have $140 million left to pay on future bills?

Secretary RUSK. Yes, and an operating fund.

Senator CAPEHART. One other question: What other nations have agreed to take $100 million if we take $100 million?

Secretary RUSK. We expect Great Britain and Canada to take part, we expect Japan to take some of it, and we expect Germany, although not a member of the United Nations, to take some of it. Mr. Black of the International Bank has been writing governments; he has taken a very active interest in this. He has been writing governments to assist in selling these bonds.

INTEREST RATES AND U.N. POLITICS

Senator CAPEHART. Would they agree to an amendment that this interest rate be the average interest that we pay on our borrowed money? Won't that please these foreign nations who have much higher interest rates in their country than we have here?

Secretary RUSK. I think that would, in terms, if I may say so, of the politics of the General Assembly-most of them will be payors rather than lenders on this obligation. In any event, I would have to check to see whether this would require going back to the General Assembly for further United Nations action.

Senator MORSE. Isn't it true, Mr. Secretary, that we have this difficult Communist bloc situation where the Communists are lending at 2 percent to their friends? Isn't that part of the politics of the situation within the United Nations?

Secretary RUSK. I think that is true, sir. But I would also think that on straight financial terms, if we could reduce the present situation to one in which we pay 32 percent, plus that 2 percent interest, we would be in a very favorable position.

Senator MORSE. I think so, too.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Connecticut.

FALSE REPORTS ON DODD'S TRIP TO CONGO

Senator DODD. I do not want to impose on my colleagues or the Secretary, but I would like to raise a matter of personal involvement.

There have been several false statements printed about my trip to the Congo, and I know the Secretary has knowledge of this.

First of all, I went over the opposition of the administration is what has been said. I want to say to the members of this committee, I not only did not go over the opposition of the administration, but the President asked me to do what I could to bring Adoula and Tshombe together. I had a long talk with him before I left, and I did my best, I think the record will show.

It has also been alleged that I told Tshombe I thought the State Department was filled with Communists. Of course, I never said any such thing. I do not happen to believe that, and no such statement was ever made.

At all times while I talked to Adoula and Tshombe and the others, I only talked with them through consular officials or Embassy officials, because I do not speak French, and Tshombe does not speak English, nor does Adoula, so far as I know.

I would appreciate it, Mr. Secretary, if you would tell the members of the committee the facts briefly. I do not want to hold anybody up, but I think it is important, to me personally anyway, that my colleagues understand that no such thing ever happened.

VALUE OF DODD'S EFFORTS CONFIRMED

Secretary RUSK. Senator, I am glad to confirm that before you went to the Congo, you and the President did have a talk, and that the President asked you to use your influence to the maximum to get Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula in a frame of mind to negotiate with each other. The reports of our own representatives who were with you on that trip confirm the value of the effort you made in this direction.

On the other matters, I have seen some of these press reports, and we have no evidence whatsoever that you ever said in the Congo that the problem was that the State Department was filled with Communists. Mr. Tshombe said that once. But I do want you to know, Senator, so far as I have been able to learn, there has been none of this kind of talk coming out from the State Department to the press.

Senator DODD. No, I know it did not come from there.

Secretary RUSK. And I am happy to confirm both those points.

RUSSIA'S DOMESTIC TROUBLES

Senator SPARKMAN. Mr. Secretary, I had one question I wanted to ask. I won't ask you to give the answer to it now, but it seems to me it might be possible to give it in the form of a memorandum for the committee.

You discussed the trouble Russia was having as between Russia and China, but you did not say anything about the trouble that Russia was having at home, internal troubles. I wonder if a memorandum on inat would be helpful?

Secretary RUSK. We could tell you the little that we know on that, Senator. This is a very difficult thing.

Senator SPARKMAN. If you do not know but a little, you can answer it right now.

Secretary RUSK. I am sorry. If you mean on the broad economic side, the agricultural side, problems of that kind, we could give you a good deal of information on that. But if you mean what seems to be going on right now in the upper echelons of the leadership there, we are convinced something very important is going on, but

we haven't quite been able to find out what it is. I mean, this Molotov thing is a very curious thing. 16

Senator SPARKMAN. Perhaps sometime in the future we could have a briefing on that.

Secretary RUSK. Fine. I will be glad to.

LETTER FROM FINNISH AMBASSADOR

Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Secretary, maybe Mr. Dutton can help. I had a letter that came to me from the former Finnish Ambassador to the United States on the Finnish-Russian situation. I think I sent it to the State Department, I am not sure. I can check it in my own office, but it was an excellent document from a man who is intimately acquainted with the Soviets, was a Finnish Ambassador to the Soviet Union for several years, and very well informed on this Finnish problem with the Soviet Union. If you will just doublecheck if it is over there, I want to get it back here because I want to share it with the committee.

It is a rather sensitive document. He asked me to keep it, not talk about it in public.

Secretary RUSK. We will be glad to do that, Senator.
Senator HUMPHREY. It is a very good one.

SITUATION IN INDONESIA

What about this Indonesian thing before we go? Everybody hits us over the head about this.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us a little fill-in on the Indonesian situation, what our policy is?

Secretary RUSK. We are at the present time trying to get these two governments into direct discussions with each other to see if there is any basis for an agreed solution.

Again if I could rely very strongly on the nature of this meeting, Mr. Chairman-

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

TURNING INDONESIA OVER TO U.N.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hickenlooper, do you want to ask any questions?

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I am interested in, from what I understood you to say, the attitude of the Dutch about resistance. From the standpoint of complete lack of knowledge of this situation there, I wonder if one can blame the Dutch very much? It seems that the Dutch have had very little, if any, encouragement or support from their natural allies in the West. They have been pretty much kicked around down in that area, and I imagine the Dutch are going to say, "If we don't get some encouragement we, as a small country, can't carry the whole burden ourselves here."

16 Former Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav M. Molotov was reported by the Soviet Foreign Ministry, on January 8, 1961, to be returning to his post as delegate to the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. The next day the statement was retracted, and shortly afterwards Molotov, who had disappeared from public view, was attacked in Pravada for his opposition to "peaceful coexistence."