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content of what we say is just as important as the media through which we say it, sir.

TRAVEL COSTS

Mr. ROONEY. According to the statement at page 687, we now have a request for 60 trips, New York and Washington, at a cost of $48 each.

Mr. BARRETT. For an average of 2 days each. A trip costs us $30 actual travel cost in accordance with the departments set-up in that field and $9 a day per diem for trips, averaging 2 days each. Mr. ROONEY. Any questions on this office, Policy and Advisory Staff?

ADMINISTRATIVE FLEXIBILITY WITHIN APPROPRIATIONS

Mr. FLOOD. Mr. Wilber, there has arisen here now on several occasions as far as I can remember only in connection with the State Department budget hearings since we started them a few weeks ago, an occasion that I am speaking now of this personnel matter of which you just spoke-I believe you made the flat statement that this has been the practice and the custom and the tradition of the State Deparment and you also said of other departments that come before this committee and you hinted, or actually said, that this is a general practice within other Government bureaus and departments. Is that correct?

Mr. WILBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. How long have you been in the budget business?

Mr. WILBER. I have been with the State Department in the budget end of the business for 3 years and prior to that time I was with the Bureau of the Budget for 6 years.

Mr. FLOOD. I am not indicating this is any justification or defense of anything your crowd has done but I would like the record to show that this is no conspiracy or attempt to perpetrate a fraud or flount the subcommittee by the State Department; only apparently you are all alike. You are doing something wrong all over the place.

Mr. WILBER. Perhaps not all over the place; perhaps that is too broad but I know it is general practice. The general aim, the general trend in budgeting over the last 6 or 8 years, has been to consolidate appropriations so that you could acquire the kind of flexibility within. the amount provided that would eliminate the necessity for repeatedly coming to the Hill for supplemental estimates to accomplish these particular purposes.

Mr. FLOOD. That may be all right. The only thing I would like to get clear in my mind is, is this a conspiracy existing among budget officers all over Washington in all departments that they have a point of view or attitude that no matter what we say in the Appropriations Committee or on the Hill, is to hell with Congress, we will do it this way after you get out of here?

Mr. WILBER. Not at all, the philosophy has been that you must have administrative flexibility within limits.

Mr. FLOOD. Whose policy?

Mr. WILBER. I would say in general the budget administrators of at least a lot of Government agencies.

Mr. FLOOD. Are the Budget Bureau people aware of this practice and procedure?

Mr. WILBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. You are sure of that?

Mr. WILBER. Very sure of that because when I was an analyst in the Bureau of the Budget that was one of the first things I looked for when I was handling the Department of Justice's estimates. I would look for changes in the picture that was presented one year as compared with the same year's presentation in the succeeding year's esti

mates.

Mr. FLOOD. It is the kind of thing which obviously calls for the attention of somebody. I do not know whether this is sufficiently highlevel-the subcommittee to do it--but my only purpose at this time is to remove from this particular section of this particular Department a stigma that you are perpetrating a fraud and disregarding any direct instructions and orders even though you did get them from us.

If you are guilty of a common crime, there has been an offense committed. Are you any worse than anybody else?

Mr. WILBER. I would say not, sir. That is a hard question to answer but we have striven to live within the total positions authorized and the total funds provided. We have to.

Mr. FLOOD. I am sitting here for months with members of this subcommittee. We go through a lot of trouble here and we decide or we think we decide that State Department, section A, subsection B, office X, is to have four stenographers. Well, it turns up a year later that you have had six and a half.

Mr. WILBER. I think that is entirely a question of practical administration because at the time we prepare these estimates we are actually a year in advance of operations.

Mr. FLOOD. That is a good answer but the chairman brings this to my attention. I am glad I asked you the question. I am glad you give me the answer. I understand that I agree with you, but am I right or wrong when I expect this as a member of the subcommittee, this may be a difference of opinion. Why don't you bring it to the attention of Mr. Cannon, Mr. Rooney, the facts that you have so done, if you don't want to go to the bother of calling a meeting of the whole subcommittee?

Mr. WILBER. I will be glad to do that, Mr. Flood. It has neverMr. FLOOD. Why haven't you done it before?

Mr. WILBER. Merely, I believe, because it hasn't been called for. Mr. FLOOD. Usage and custom of the trade.

Mr. WILBER. That is right.

Mr. FLOOD. I want to know if you only are guilty or are you all tarred with the same brush because of custom and usage whether it is right

or wrong.

Mr. WILBER. Custom and usage but, I, by all means, stress the importance of having that flexibility as you enter into a period of operation that is a year after you plan it.

Mr. FLOOD. In spite of the mores and customs of the trade with reference to this problem we are talking about, is there any reason that will upset the operation of your budget office why you can't advise Mr. Rooney if and when this practice takes place in your Department sometime during the course of the fiscal year or period when it is explained?

Mr. WILBER. We will be delighted to do it as it happens and, moreover, where there are significant changes, await the expression of the committee as to whether or not it is all right.

Mr. FLOOD. Let Mr. Rooney or the chairman decide whether he wants to call the subcommittee to consider meeting the problem.

Mr. WILBER. I think it would be an excellent practice as a matter of fact.

Mr. FLOOD. I think you ought to bring it to the attention of everybody else when you have these budget meetings downtown-I assume that you have conferences and unions; everybody else has.

Mr. WILBER. We hold such a meeting every month, sir. I will be glad to do that.

Mr. FLOOD. Be a hero and get yourself a blue ribbon from somebody or get your head knocked off by your brother budget officers.

Mr. ROONEY. Mr. Wilber, when you say that the budget was planned a year in advance, are you unmindful of the fact that it is only a couple of months before the budget goes into effect that you and your associates are here telling us that you need so many employees in an office, and that acting on that this committee makes a decision and funds are appropriated?

Mr. WILBER. That is absolutely correct, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROONEY. Of course it is correct.

Mr. WILBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROONEY. Another thing-you say that this is a general practice. Have there been other instances where you have doubled the staff—an increase of 100 percent over the authorization? Do you want us to understand that that is general practice?

Mr. WILBER. No, sir. That is not. It is a most unusual case and I know of no other where it has happened.

Mr. ROONEY. Let me ask you one thing more: Do you know of instances where it becomes general practice, after the Congress in its report makes certain recommendations, not to follow those recommendation but do exactly to the contrary; is that general practice? Mr. WILBER. No, sir.

Mr. ROONEY. Bet your life it isn't.

Mr. WILBER. I want to say this

Mr. ROONEY. I will say that I don't find it in other departments. If you don't believe that. Mr. Barrett, I can't help it.

Mr. BARRETT. All I can say to you, Mr. Chairman, is that there have been major new developments in this whole policy field in this interim since this committee considered the supplemental budget.

Mr. ROONEY. When you set up this program, you are supposed to know how many employees you need to carry it out and you are not supposed to tell us you need funds for one thing and go out and spend them for something else.

Mr. BARRETT. There have been major new developments that made it possible for me to have men participating in top policy formulation in the Department.

Mr. ROONEY. It would seem that in the Office of Public Affairs, in connection with this whole program, there is a resentment of the fact that the Congress has a duty to appropriate money. Certainly no one down in your shop would expect that the Congress and as a Member of the Congress, with the responsibility to approve and urge the rest of the House to appropriate a certain amount of fundsthat I am not entitled to know something about it. You would not claim that, would you?

81707-51-67

Mr. BARRETT. No, sir. I certainly would not.

Mr. ROONEY. Is there such a thing in your shop as resentment of the fact that Congress has to go into this budget every year?

Mr. BARRETT. No, sir, there is not. I would not say there was. Mr. ROONEY. I don't suppose you would agree with me that on the testimony adduced so far during these hearings there surely is a need for very, very close inspection of these appropriation estimates? Would you agree to that?

Mr. BARRETT. No, sir, I would not.

Mr. ROONEY. I didn't expect you would.

INTERDEPARTMENTAL FOREIGN INFORMATION STAFF

Mr. ROONEY. If there are no questions, we shall go on to the next item which is Interdepartmental Foreign Information Staff, which begins at page 689 of the justifications. At this point we shall have page 689 inserted in the record.

(The material referred to follows:)

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Mr. ROONEY. There is a requested increase of $34,727 for this item. Are there any abracadabra figures or do we have to get out last year's justifications to find out?

Mr. BARRETT. I don't think there is at all, if there is I am unaware of it. There is practically no change at all in these figures.

Mr. MAY. I will check that, sir. I don't believe that there is.
Mr. ROONEY. Are there any questions about this item?

OFFICE OF GENERAL MANAGER

Mr. ROONEY. The next item is Office of General Manager, appearing at page 692 of the justifications which page together with the chart at the upper half of page 693, we shall insert in the record at this point. (The material referred to follows:)

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