would not undertake to say, as a layman, what a physician should have as a dietitian.

Senator WHEELER. Perhaps they should be sent to some exclusive Boston cooking school and give them a first-class training, then, perhaps, they could qualify?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. There are not many Indians who could pay the car fare to Boston.

Senator FRAZIER. That is all, Doctor.

(Witness excused.)

Senator FRAZIER. Are there any other Indians that want to be heard? We have a little more time left and if there are any other Indians that want to be heard, now is your chance.

JOHN B. BROWN was recalled as a witness and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further, as follows:

Senator WHEELER. When you recited this long list of different things that were taught in the school, with reference to mechanics, and so forth, I gathered the impression that you gave them, or were supposed to give them, a complete course in these different trades. I talked with one of the men over here and he told me, for instance, in the shoe-repairing department, that you gave them 10 weeks; that is, they were 10 weeks in the shoe-repairing department, and that when they were turned out they could do rough repairing, but that they were not capable of taking a job. Why is it in the shoerepairing department when you teach them to repair shoes that you do not give them enough to do so they can go to work and do firstclass shoe repairing?

Mr. BROWN. The shoe-repair business or the shoe shop in this institution is primarily for the saving of money and saving of shoes. The boys who do that work there do it because they are taking their routine through the job. It happens it is not very popular and they do not care to continue with it over a long enough period to make it a vocation. We have left the choice up to the boys and thus far no one has chosen it to speak of. It is not a very attractive shop business.

Senator WHEELER. Then again, they called our attention to the fact or we were shown a shoe, for instance, that had been worn by some of the boys, where it was worn clear through and a big hole in the sole of it before it was taken to the repair department.

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Is there not some one who checks up on these shoes to see when they are in need of repair?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; the shoes are inspected regularly. The boys, in the first place, are invited to report it whenever their shoes are out of order. If it is discovered in any other way the boy is told to have the repairs made.

Senator WHEELER. There was a few over there, that had been sent over for repairs, with a hole in it big enough to put your fist through.

Mr. BROWN. It probably would not be repaired.

Senator WHEELER. That shoe looked to me like it was beyond repair. You would have to take the whole sole off and make a new sole. Why should any boy be permitted to go to such an extent

that he would wear the whole sole of his shoe without it being found out?

Mr. BROWN. It is not intended it should be done that way. Somebody has been neglectful.

Senator WHEELER. Somebody has neglected it?

Mr. BROWN. In the first place it is his duty and in the next place it should be somebody else's to find out about it.

Senator WHEELER. It is his duty first and then it should be checked up and seen to that it is done?

Mr. BROWN. They usually bring it to our attention. There is usually no trouble about that.

Senator THOMAS. Do the boys have the opportunity of turning their shoes in at will?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. So if any boy desires to let part of his foot walk on the ground it is his preference; is that correct?

Mr. BROWN. Certainly, it is his preference. Still we would not let him do it if we saw it. We would call his attention to it.

Senator WHEELER. When they go into the classroom, it would seem to me the teachers should look after the welfare of the students and ought to find out about it. It is gross neglect when they go around in that kind of a shoe.

Senator FRAZIER. Over at the Sherman Institute they told us that the shoe repair and harness shop was one of the most popular places they had there, and the head of the department told me he had no trouble in placing tose boys as soon as they got through there in good paying positions.

Senator WHEELER. He said there was a demand for them. He said there was a big demand for boys who could repair shoes. He advised us they had no trouble in placing them in Los Angeles, and in addition to that he said they could start little shops for themselves and that some of them were starting up little shoe-repair shops and were very successful.

In your automobile repair department I talked with some man out there with reference to it. He said that they could not turn out a first-class mechanic because of the fact they did not have cars enough to repair; they did not have work enough. It seems to me some system could be worked out whereby the department would take in any work in order to give these boys a sufficient education in automobile repairing. Certainly there should be work enough if you are going to teach them auto repairing. There should be sufficient work so that they would know all about automobiles.

Mr. BROWN. We are doing all that sort of work as well as we can with the available force we have. We are busy all the time.

Senator WHEELER. You have a group of boys here, and after all the purpose of this school is to give them an education along certain lines. They are not getting it in the automobile repair department; they are not getting it in the shoe repair department and they are not getting it in the carpentry department. They tell me when they turn them out in the carpentry department, for instance, they do not have any real experience in building houses, only once in a while when you build a garage down here on the school grounds. I am not criticizing you for it, but somebody is to blame for it, and the matter should be corrected.

Mr. BROWN. I agree with you, Senator, as to what we ought to do. Senator WHEELER. Just why it has not been done. That is what I want to get at.

Mr. BROWN. As I have explained, the amount of work is limited. on the place here, and one great handicap this particular year has been that our available appropriations for building operations or our plans for the buildings did not reach us until the 1st of March. Had we had the whole year to build these things, we would have used twice the pupil labor and had three or four times the instruction opportunity than we have been able to have. We must finish our buildings before the close of the fiscal year. If we could push the work and get our plans ready in time, we could do much better in the way of utilizing these jobs for instruction purposes.

Senator WHEELER. On the contrary, they tell me in the printing department here that they turn out boys and have found them jobs and were able to find them jobs and they became expert printers.

Mr. BROWN. They have done well in the printing trade and that shop has done well, but the boys do not go out as journeyman printers; they go out as printers' pressman and gradually work into better jobs. There are many good printers in Phoenix that got their start here.

Senator WHEELER. They told us of one boy that is in business here. The head of the printing department is an Indian, is he not?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; appointed upon my recommendation. He trained here, learned the business and is doing it well.

Senator WHEELER. That would indicate at least that some of these Indians are capable of taking hold not only as helpers but, as a matter of fact, they can become leaders.

Mr. BROWN. When we find such a one we are glad to put him in there.

Senator WHEELER. I hope Mr. Scattergood will take notice of the situation with reference to the lack of training in these different institutions.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. In regard to the automobile, I was speaking to Mr. Brown about that before we resumed the afternoon session. He called attention to the fact that if we took in automobiles other than Government cars, then we will begin competing with private enterprise and an objection would immediately be raised to the Government going into that field. We are limited to repairing our own rolling stock and the employees' rolling stock.

Senator WHEELER. Then you had better disband that part of it. You better not say you will give them an automobile-repairing education.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. I think they are doing some work of that nature. but maybe not all they ought to do.

Senator WHEELER. You better abandon it and not say you have an automobile repair shop and are teaching them a lot of other things unless you are actually doing it. It is misleading to the Congress of the United States and it is misleading to the general public. Mr. BROWN. There is no intention of misleading anybody.

to.

Senator WHEELER. I understand that, but that is what it amounts

Mr. BROWN. We do not intend to do that.

Senator FRAZIER. There are a lot of old secondhand cars laying around.

Mr. BROWN. We did buy two wrecks last year.

Senator WHEELER. There are students here who are not getting sufficient training so as to fit them for anything when they get out of here. There ought to be something done about it.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. We will be glad indeed to have any suggestions. Senator WHEELER. I have made a suggestion. If the administration is so afraid to have the Government go into business that they can not give the boys enough work, then there is something wrong some place, it seems to me.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Did not Mr. Brown testify they were keeping them all busy?

Mr. BROWN. They have all the work that our instructors have time to supervise and be at all sure that the boy will be learning anything. We have got to have more instructors to work in the shop department. If we had more funds to do it with we could make smaller groups and the boys would be better mechanics when they are turned out.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you military companies among your boys? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; one National Guard company, if that is what you mean.

Senator FRAZIER. I mean among your students here. Is the National Guard company among your students?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Are a school military company?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. They are all organized for the purpose of getting about from one place to the other, for the purpose of checking attendance at various places and knowing whether they are in bed or not. In all of these organizations, it is organized by companies. It is not a very military affair.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. There is no drilling with guns, is there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do you have guns.

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Why?

Mr. BROWN. They are not drilling at this time of the year. These pupils are not drilled at all except the National Guard but they do have for competitive drills in the spring some rifles or guns used by the high schools.

Senator THOMAS. How many rifles have you!

Mr. BROWN. I can not tell you exactly.

Senator THOMAS. Enough for the boys?

Mr. BROWN. Enough for the larger boys, yes.

Senator THOMAS. What other military equipment have you besides rifles.

Mr. BROWN. Nothing, except for the National Guard.

Senator THOMAS. Aside from the National Guard what have you? Mr. BROWN. Nothing except rifles.

Senator THOMAS. No uniforms of any kind?

Mr. BROWN. Only the same uniforms they wear at schools and for every other purpose.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. From the standpoint of disciplinarian drilling, would it not be just as good and just as desirable and just as advantageous to the students to drop the rifles?

Mr. BROWN. It would not worry me at all to drop them. (Witness excused.)

STATEMENT OF JACOB F. DURANT

Senator FRAZIER. How many rifles are there besides the National Guards company?

Mr. DURANT. About 500.

Senator FRAZIER. What is a dummy rifle?

Mr. DURANT. It is like a rifle, but it is nothing but a simple piece of iron for the purpose of identifying the barrel part of it. It was used during the time of war for training purposes.

Senator FRAZIER. It is not a rifle at all. It just looks like a rifle? Mr. DURANT. It looks like a rifle. It is the same weight as the regular Army rifle.

Senator FRAZIER. Where did you get the dummy rifles?

Mr. DURANT. From the State of Arizona, from different high schools.

Senator FRAZIER. They are used for other purposes-gymnastics? Mr. DURANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do you have any target practice?

Mr. DURANT. Only the members of the National Guard.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. How many?

Mr. DURANT. We have 66 members.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. That is entirely apart from the school drill? Mr. DURANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. The school drill for disciplinarian purposes could be done without any rifles, could it not?

Mr. DURANT. It was done all the time that way, and we found those dummy rifles after the war and we thought we would use them to make them look more like soldiers. They took more pride in it.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Why should any of us want to educate the Indians to be soldiers?

Mr. DURANT. It was not for the purpose of making a soldier out of him, but it was a mighty good way to make them do the work better. Any boy feels more like doing something if he looks like the other fellow.

Senator FRAZIER. How is the National Guard company organized? Mr. SCATTERGOOD. The National Guard was organized here in 1924. We took the matter up with the adjutant general of the Stateof Arizona.

Senator HAYDEN. There was a National Guard company here a good many years ago.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. At the Phoenix Indian School?

Senator HAYDEN. Yes.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Not to my knowledge.

Senator HAYDEN. There was to my knowledge. When I belonged to the National Guard of this State there was a company here at the Phoenix Indian School commanded by Captain, afterwards Colonel, Grinstedt.