The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at Sacaton, Ariz., Hon. Lynn J. Frazier (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Frazier (chairman), Wheeler, and Thomas. Also present: Senator Ashurst, ex officio member of the subcommittee; Hon. J. H. Scattergood, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs; Mr. A. A. Grorud, special assistant to the subcommittee; Nelson A. Mason, clerk; and F. S. Milberg, official reporter.

Senator FRAZIER. The hearing will come to order. This hearing is held by a subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the United States Senate under authority of a resolution adopted by the Senate authorizing us to visit the various Indian reservations throughout the United States and to hold hearings to find out the general situation among the Indians and to get the Indians' viewpoint of the situation, where they live, their complaints or recommendations, as well as to also hear the officials and others connected with the reservation or schools.

Now, there were some members of the business council of this reservation up at Phoenix yesterday to testify. Are there any other Indians who wish to come before the committee?

JOHN E. JOHNSON was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. What is your name?

Mr. JOHNSON. John E. Johnson.

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?

Mr. JOHNSON. Blackwater, Ariz.

Senator FRAZIER. How far is that from here?

Mr. JOHNSON. About 12 miles.

Senator FRAZIER. That is on the Pima Reservation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What is it you want to take up with the committee?

Mr. JOHNSON. I wrote a petition to the commissioner about a year ago on the work that was being done at Blackwater.

Senator FRAZIER. What work do you mean?

Mr. JOHNSON. The clearing. There are some things which we do not like because, as we look at it, some day we will have to pay for

whatever money is expended there. So it is natural that we look at it this way that we want the work done right.

Senator THOMAS. What work do you have reference to?

Mr. JOHNSON. This clearing up at Blackwater.

Senator THOMAS. Is that down here?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is the other clearing that is being done below here. The best thing I can do is to present this petition which we wrote to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, which is as follows:

Hon. CHARLES J. RHODES,

BLACKWATER, ARIZ., November 25, 1929.

Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.

DEAR SIR: We the undersigned members of the Pima Indians on the Gila River Reservation, Blackwater, Ariz., asking your aid in our behalf.

We hereby petition against the foreman, Mr. A. E. Robinson. Apparently the total experience gained was observing clearing work at Buckeye, Ariz., during month of April, 1929; appointed foreman on the land, clearing, leveling Pima project, Gila River Reservation.

Charge No. 1: The preceding months of May, June, July, August, and September he reported each morning to arrange work for his crew. He immediately departed, traveling back to Sacaton, a distance of 12 miles, for his noon dinner. The trip was made four times a day, or 48 miles, using Government car and gas and oil.

Charge No. 2: Violating the rules of the fixed 8-hour day as the minimum period of work in any one calendar day for all employees in the Indian Service.

Charge No. 3: Said foreman never gave his time with his working crew to constitute a working day on the 2,500 acres cleared. Out from this 2,500 acres cleared only 110 acres are leveled and planted within those seven months. This means that the foreman is not qualified for the job.

Charge No. 4: In the month of July he laid off a few of his best men without cause. He was not on the job to see what they were doing. Discouragement created and more workingmen quit their work and the helpers became short.

Charge No. 5: Foreman has debarred half of the Blackwater boys from work, and they are ones that are extremely poor. They are as owners of the property with natural rights of ownership. They have a full right to work.

Charge No. 6: In the month of October foreman did not report for duty. His brother came on duty during his absence and arranged work in the morning, and that was the last to be seen.

Charge No. 7: Foreman has three engineers, namely, Herman Moody, John Moody, and Clinton. They had never constituted a working day within seven months of their service. Also steal Government gas and oil for use in their private cars. Also haul wood and fence posts outside of our reservation for their own use.

Charge No. 8: Said foreman has domineer regardless over three employees, namely, Mr. Hess, a district farmer of Blackwater; L. B. Miller, director of agriculture; and Mr. Willis, instrument man. These employees are experts in their work, doing their duties knowingly and willingly in good faith. We as a tribe of Indians appeal to strongly that these employees shall proceed and continue their duties.

Charge No. 9: Said foreman has appointed Mr. Sanderson in Mr. Hess's job and Tom Madox is appointed in Mr. Edward Willis's job on November 16, 1929. These new appointed men are stealing Government gas and oil within a short time of their stay in their private cars.

Charge No. 10: Charges inefficiency on part of foreman. Work on leveling and bordering was started without regard to any engineering data, such as levels and general contours of land; some was declared ready for planting that was above the level of the lateral from which water was to be drawn; excessive slope was of little or no concern and violated the sound principles of irrigation necessary for this section. Machinery and men were transferred from unfinished work across one section of land in order to make a "showing" or "grand-stand play," a quotation used by him. When asked for reasons and what levels were shown on engineers' report, said such materials were in his possession but had not been scanned, as it was unnecessary; slopes existed of 12 inches in 100 feet.

Good authority declares any over 2 inches in 100 feet excessive; finally work was admitted failure and was found necessary to construct; time and expense added the result.

We as a tribe of Indians respectfully request that said A. E. Robinson be discharged from the Indian Service. Joseph John was promised if he consented to have his fall crop of beans, corn, melons, and pumpkins destroyed his allotments would be leveled and bordered and wheat planted for him.

At this date, February 1, 1930, nothing done beyond leveling. A party hauled a load of wood at the request of Herman Moody to his residence in Coolidge, Ariz., who claims that Mr. A. E. Robinson gave him authority to move the wood out of the reservation, the wood being Indian property. Herman Moody also took two axes and canteens which are Government property. Because of carelessness of the timekeeper, Sam Redmon was paid two days for which he didn't earn, as was Santiago John. Because of these errors in timekeeping the fight was caused between Walter Eschief and Thomas Blackwater, substitute timekeeper and field boss.

Senator FRAZIER. That is dated November 25, 1929?

Mr. JOHNSON. To tell the truth, that is not the exact date. This is one of the copies we have kept, but we have sent on a petition to the commissioner after the last one. As that has not been done, we added this on to present to this committee. This is the only petition that was sent to the commissioner about a year ago.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you get a reply from the commissioner?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; we never got one.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you get a letter from the commissioner in reply to this letter?

Mr. JOHNSON. We got a letter that he would come here, and I understand that he did come, but never gave us a chance to speak about what we wanted to tell him.

Senator THOMAS. Did you present the matter to your agent?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; that is one thing we do not do. Our understanding was he would refuse us.

Senator FRAZIER. The agent would refuse you?

Mr. JOHNSON. That the agent would refuse us.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you discuss the matter with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Afterwards we discussed the matter about the work, and this is one of the things we wanted: We wanted the Indian boys to drive the caterpillars, and Mr. Kneale said it would be all right and he would let the Indian boys drive the caterpillars as soon as he can train them up. That was more than a year ago. As I understand now, there are only one or two driving. The rest are white fellows.

Senator FRAZIER. That was explained quite fully yesterday up at Phoenix. It was stated by the superintendent and also by the assistant commissioner, Mr. Scattergood, that under the civil-service examination the Indian boys have not qualified or have not passed the examination. The assistant commissioner, Mr. Scattergood, has taken that up with the department, and he thinks it can be straightened out so that the Indian boys who are qualified to drive the tractors can hold the positions.

Anything else?

Mr. JOHNSON. Only to add this: We want to know how much the work has been costing us since then.

Senator FRAZIER. You mean to level it up and get it ready for the water?

Mr. JOHNSON. How much debt we are going to have to shoulder after it is through.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. It is estimated at about $35 an acre in all probability, on the average.

Senator FRAZIER. Does that include the ditches?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. The ditches and so on. What is known as the project that is, $100 an acre; so that the total cost would be about $135 an acre. That is as near as I can tell it now.

Senator FRAZIER. Anything else?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. There is an accurate cost record being kept at the office if he wants any details. I think he can get that at the office.

Senator FRAZIER. This $135 will be a reimbursible charge against the land, will it?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. You understand that that reimbursible charge against the land for the cost of the irrigation project and for the leveling will not be collected as long as the Indian holds title to the land.

Mr. JOHNSON. Another thing I want to know is this: On the north side of the river, at Blackwater, there has been no clearing done, and I, for myself, I sign for two of my boys that the land be cleared. but that was not done. They moved the caterpillars down to Casa Blanca. I thought that was a loss.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, I do not know anything about who deter mines just how much land or what land is to be cleared. I suppose that is up to the superintendent here, is it not?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. There is a great deal of land still to be cleared. Only about 12,000 acres out of 50,000. I expect he is in a part that has not yet been reached.

Senator WHEELER. Are you in a part that has not been reached! Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I am right across the river from where they cleared.

Senator WHEELER. You wanted them to go over there and clear your land before they took it down to Casa Blanca; is that it?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I think that is the contract we signed. I think that is the contract, and if the Government contract to do it they ought to do it.

Senator WHEELER. They will do it; they can not do it all at once. Mr. JOHNSON. I am just at a loss to know why they left there, we were so close together. They could cross the river and do the work. Senator WHEELER. Why did you go down to Casa Blanca? Who has charge of that work?

Mr. A. E. ROBINSON. The greater portion of that land lying on the north side of the river is now under cultivation. We are spending all of our time on virgin-desert land, land that can receive water and produce crops. This land will probably not produce as efficiently as it would had we put the ditches in and finished the clearing. The greater portion of the strip on the north side of the river is under cultivation. We moved down to this district in order that we could prepare this desert land and leave the old land until the greater portion of the desert lands were under cultivation and producing, then we will finish up the old land.

Senator WHEELER. Anything else?