Mr. PETTIS. I think at the present time there are three Apache Indians.

Senator WHEELER. About three of them up there at the present time?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. There are some Navajos?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir; I could not say how many.

Senator FRAZIER. Why is it there are not more Indians up there? Mr. PETTIS. Because there is not sufficient wages to hold them and the working conditions are so unbearable.

Senator FRAZIER. What makes it unbearable?

Mr. PETTIS. One thing is, in the wintertime the climate is severe, snows, and so forth; they have not any quarters, you might say. It is practically Indian camps. The company built them from sheds out there.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Is it the same kind of quarters that the negroes have?

Mr. PETTIS. No, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Not as good?

Mr. PETTIS. Much poorer.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do they assign certain houses to the Indians? Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Are those houses always poorer houses than anybody else's?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes; the Indian quarters at McNary are the poorest quarters there.

Senator THOMAS. Worse than the Mexican?

Mr. PETTIS. Worse than the Mexican or negro.

Senator WHEELER. Do they treat the negroes better than they do the Indians up there?

Mr. PETTIS. Well, in several ways they do. I might explain that a little more. You see the Indian quarters, as I see it-I am not sure of this, but I do not believe they pay rent on them. The company can keep a negro there and pay them very small wages and they issue this scrip, so he can make a living, and he charges them their rent; then they have the negro attractions there in the way of gambling houses, that has already been represented to you.

Senator WHEELER. Do they have houses of prostitution up there? Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. You have seen them?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. They have regular gambling houses?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. What kind of games to they have?

Mr. PETTIS. Poker, black jack, Georgia skin, solitaire, and they shoot dice.

Senator THOMAS. Roulette?

Mr. PETTIS. No, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Do they have a regular man running the house? Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir; they used to have one when I was there. Senator WHEELER. How long ago were you there?

Mr. PETTIS. Three years.

Senator WHEELER. You have not been there in three years?
Mr. PETTIS. No.

Senator WHEELER. You do not know whether it has been cleaned up any since that time?

Mr. PETTIS. I make an occasional trip in there, and I saw a few of them that seemed to be kind of bad. From what the outside boys have told me I do not think it has been cleaned up. The only condi tion that has cleaned it up is the reduction in pay. There is not much money as there used to be, and consequently the gambling is not as good.

Senator THOMAS. Could an officer representing the Government or the Interior Department, the Indian Service, go up there and locate these gambling houses?

Mr. PETTIS. You say, couldn't they?
Senator THOMAS. Yes.

Mr. PETTIS. Yes; they have.

Senator THOMAS. Undercover men?

Mr. PETTIS. The undercover men located them, as was brought out here to-day, and I believe they can locate more. What I believe these Indians want is to eliminate the negroes. A negro, to these Indians here in particular, is undesirable. They do not like to associate with them; they do not like to work with them; and they brought the whisky and the venereal disease to these Indians and introduced it to them and took the work away from them, you see, as we see it. The negro-he is a natural born slave and an Indian is not; consequently we can not compete with the negro, and I think it is unjust for anybody to ask these Indians to compete with the negro.

Senator WHEELER. I agree with you entirely. I think it is a crime that they were ever permitted to be brought on the reservation.

Mr. PETTIS. These Indians are asking that the Government remove those negroes from the reservation and not permit any more negroes on it at all.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Have you ever seen negroes anywhere else than here?

Mr. PETTIS. A very small percentage.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Why do you say they are natural born slaves now, because their fathers were?

Mr. PETTIS. They are so, in my opinion. Their forefathers were natural born slaves.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. They were slaves?

Mr. PETTIS. They were slaves, but is there any time an Indian was a slave?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. It is not right for you to condemn another race who, through no fault of his own, was a slave. I do not think it is fair play for you to treat the negroes that way.

Mr. PETTIS. I believe a negro is a natural born slave, unless he is a natural born savage. He is one of the two. You should put him back in Africa where he belongs.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. We do not have any slavery in this country.

Mr. PETTIS. Let us put them somewhere else where people are better educated to compete

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Neither you nor I, nor even the President of the United States, can order a negro across the street in an ordinary place. Perhaps they could on a reservation.

Senator WHEELER. You certainly can keep them off an Indian reservation.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Not because they are negroes.

Senator WHEELER. You can keep any undesirable people off the reservation.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. He is taking the stand because they are negroes they should be put off.

Senator WHEELER. Why argue about it?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Because I do not believe in race prejudice. Senator WHEELER. Neither do I. You are supposed to represent the Indians, however.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. I represent all the people alike.

Senator WHEELER. They have permitted these negroes to be brought in here. The poor negro is not to blame. He has been debauched himself. They have brought with them veneral disease, they brought with them gambling, they brought with them whisky, and they brought with them everything else. It is not fair to the Indians to bring them in and put such a situation on these Indian reservations. It is an outrageous thing, in my judgment.

Senator FRAZIER. What about the cattle situation?

Mr. PETTIS. It has been badly neglected on this reservation.
Senator FRAZIER. What do you mean neglected?

Mr. PETTIS. Well, in permitting leases to overrun the range and destroy the forage and having erosion set in, decreasing its carrying capacity of cattle, you see.

Senator FRAZIER. What time do you refer to? At the present time?

Mr. PETTIS. In the past and at the present time. I could better refer you to there has been a good deal of contention here, and I can explain that-there is a certain per cent of this reservation that the Indians can not use themselves, owing to the fact they have not enough cattle; therefore, they lease it out to individuals so as to bring in some money for the tribe. That started in I would say— I can not be exact on these things because I did not study them, but I have been familiar with the situation for 15 years. Fifteen years ago it was in existence anyway. They have so allowed these ranges to be overrun and erosin to set in that the country will not carry half the cattle it would then. We expect people to notice that and report it to the Government. We have had a survey made here and I have read through their article, their report on this range, and I believe it is very complete, and I believe it should be given attention.

Senator THOMAS. Those reports indicate that the cattle were grazing too close?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir. It would take me all day to explain the entire situation to you. Probably some of the forestry men could explain it.

Senator FRAZIER. Superintendent Donner made the statement that in the past these leases were overgrazed and too many cattle put on, but he said he did not think that was the case at the present time. Mr. PETTIS. We had an investigation here. The Indian Service sent Mr. Campbell out here to investigate this reservation. Senator WHEELER. When did they send him out here?

Mr. PETTIS. The Indian Service sent him out here some time last month. He was here in March.

26465-31-PT 17-48

Senator FRAZIER. Do you know what he reported?

Mr. PETTIS. Well, according to a letter that we got from Congressman Douglas's secretary, he reported a lot of lies, and I believe I could point it out if we were given an opportunity.

Senator WHEELER. I do not object to his being sent down here, but I do not want him in Montana. When you get tired of the superintendent you have here I will be glad to have him come up to Montana.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Here is this letter.

Mr. PETTIS. This is from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to Congressman Douglas.

Senator FRAZIER. This is a copy, or purporting to be copy, of a letter signed by Commissioner Rhodes, dated April 2, 1931—

MY DEAR MR. DOUGLAS :

This is to Congressman Douglas, is it?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER (reading):

Referring to your letter of March 24, relative to certain matters pertaining to the Fort Apache Reservation, your attention is called to your letter addressed to you under date of March 9, transmitting, at the request of Mr. F. C. Campbell, supervisor of extension work, a letter signed by several Indians of the Fort Apache Reservation who wrote to you in regard to matters affecting their interests, from which it appears that the matters referred to have been gone into thoroughly and been given proper consideration.

Referring more particularly to the. various matters mentioned by your correspondence, it appears from the report that the Indians will benefit to a greater extent from the handling of the tribal herd than the issuance of a larger number of heifers to them therefrom. Under the present arrangement they can be furnished with satisfactory bulls from the tribal herd, whereas such animals could not be otherwise provided in sufficient numbers to insure a satisfactory calf crop from individually owned cows. The cattle industry is now, and will continue to be, the principal industry of those Indians, and in view of the limited amount of funds at our disposal, it is desirable that the tribal herd be handled in a manner to produce the maximum number of bulls for them.

In regard to discrimination against Indians in the matter of employment, it appears from the report that the superintendent does not have any white persons regularly employed outside of the civil service and that Indians are employed by him where possible. It also appears that the lumber mills employ Indian labor to such extent as may be possible, considering the fact that they can not be depended upon to stay on the job.

The plan of selling Indian cattle appears to be satisfactory to most of the Indians and the complaint was inserted in the petition at the request of one or two members of the tribe. The question of employing assistant Indian stockmen was discussed and their employment apparently is not justified. The work can probably be carried on in a more satisfactory manner if one additional stockman and superintendent of livestock are provided. This recommedation will be given consideration in the light of available funds.

The use of coal in preference to wood is advisable for the reason that, in addition to the efficiency of coal, its cost is only about one-half what the cost of wood would be.

Investigation of the charge relative to exorbitant prices being charged by traders indicated that their prices were practically the same as those charged by merchants outside the reservation. All matters referred to were discussed fully with the signers of the petition and other members of the tribe interested who, after having matters fully explained to them, feel that the matter of handling various activities is for their best interests.

Sincerely yours,

Hon. L. W. DOUGLAS,

House of Representatives.

C. S. RHODES, Commissioner.

Senator WHEELER. What was there in that letter that you felt was wrong?

Mr. PETTIS. Start in at the first. There were several places. One place there he said that the matter had been given consideration. He did not go into some of the matters thoroughly. He had fellows testify and they testified very much as they have to-day in regard to the McNary situation and in regard to other matters. He said they had been given proper consideration. According to that report, it has not been given proper consideration.

Senator WHEELER. What part of it?

Mr. PETTIS. One part there where he said the Indian agent only employed white people that were in the civil service. He admitted himself he had truck drivers here that were not. We have six white carpenters. We have in the neighborhood of 14 Indian carpenters on this reservation at the present time who are out of employment. Senator WHEELER. How many?

Mr. PETTIS. Fourteen.

Senator WHEELER. How about that?

Mr. DONNER. I think I have every Indian carpenter that wants to work and who is at all a carpenter employed at the present time. A number of men on that petition are employed and paid the same money that the white carpenters are paid. As I stated before, I could use more. I might call attention to this: We built you a house, not quite completed. You did a good deal of that work yourself?

Mr. PETTIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONNER. When you started that work I appointed several Indian carpenters, but you selected the white man?"

Mr. PETTIS. I selected an Indian and he started on the house. Mr. DONNER. You selected-I forget the name of the man-he is not here now.

Mr. PETTIS. You said, "Whom do you want in addition to that?" That was a few days later, and I said, "Mr. Ellis," and Mr. Ellis is a white man; yes, that is a fact.

Senator WHEELER. Why did you not take an Indian carpenter? Mr. PETTIS. On that job?

Senator WHEELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. PETTIS. I would have. In fact, Mr. Ellis worked four days, and they sent another Indian down. I had no objections, and the Indian did the work just as good as the white man.

Senator WHEELER. Tell what Indian carpenters you have on this reservation that are out of work and who want work.

Mr. PETTIS. In the meeting the other night the boys named over 14 that have got trades; they have been off to school and are supposed to have graduated in the carpentry trade.

Senator WHEELER. Can you tell me the names of any boys who are carpenters-and I refer to Indian boys who are carpenterscompetent to do the work and who want work and have not got it? Mr. PETTIS. I will refer you to certain witnesses here. They can probably tell you.

Senator WHEELER. We would like to have you name them, because they have some Indian carpenters on now.

Mr. DONNER. We would like to have them named. We have some on now that we furnished a hammer and saw to in order for them to do the work.