a wide range of manufactured goods, and buy from the Chinese, I suppose, a lot of raw materials. I think the Japanese buy a lot of coal from the Chinese. The CHAIRMAN. Coal. Dr. LUBMAN. Yes. (The following information was later supplied :) Sino-Japanese Trade, 1969 JAPAN EXPORTS Heavy plates and sheets.. Bars and rods of alloy steel (not elsewhere specified). Nitrogen-function compounds: Choline--- Organo-inorganic and heterocyclic compound: Pyridine__. Other inorganic chemicals: Ammonium chloride.. Products of polymerization and copolymerization: Polyvinyl/chloride resins Polystyrene U.S. dollars in thousands Chemical products and preparations (not elsewhere specified): Catalysts Textile yarn and thread: Yarn of continuous polyester fibers. Yarn of continuous high tenacity fibers_. Textile fabrics, woven, other than cotton fabrics: High-tenacity rayon tire cord fabrics_ Iron or steel, and universals: Wire rod of low carbon steel___ Wire rod of ordinary steel.. Mechanical structural carbon steel of other than high carbon steel__ 49, 189 2, 410 12, 809 18, 774 2,974 3,819 2, 328 3,436 3, 797 2, 949 2,529 2,577 4,342 9,955 2, 916 Cold rolled plates and sheets more than 0.9 mm.. Cold rolled plates and sheets not more than 0.9 mm. in thickness___ Medium plates and sheets of other than high carbon or alloy steel__ 4,675 Hot rolled plates and sheets--. 14, 183 8, 894 18, 344 4,999 5, 771 7,860 Plates and sheets of silicon steel, not in coils.. Tinned plates and sheets---- Galvanized steel plates and sheets.. Seamless tubes and pipes of other than high carbon or alloy steel, not plated (not elsewhere specified). Seamless tubes and pipes of stainless steel_. Seamless tubes and pipes of alloy steel (not elsewhere specified). Nonferrous metals: Platinum, unwrought or partly worked_ Brass and bronze, unwrought____ Manufacturers of metals (not elsewhere specified): Ropes--- 6, 888 27, 146 4,798 3,559 3, 675 3, 529 13, 336 9, 008 3,892 Axles and wheels for railway locomotives and rolling-stock_ Others Total 3, 308 3, 256 4,717 2, 713 113, 448 390, 803 JAPAN IMPORTS Castor oil seed (excluding flour and meal). Food and live animals: Fresh, chilled or frozen meat and edible offals (not elsewhere specified) "Kurage" (Phopllema esculenta, etc.), dried, salted or smoked__ Scallops, salted, dried or smoked_. Chestnuts Small red bean___ Vegetables, dried or dehydrated (not elsewhere specified) – Crude materials, inedible, except fuels : Groundnuts, peanuts, green whether or not shelled- 2,858 3, 307 11, 466 6, 599 5, 172 1,865 3, 698 42, 324 Wild raw silk (not shown) 2, 963 Raw silk (not elsewhere specified). 3,755 Cashmere goat hair_-_. 15, 586 Fluorspar, leucite, nepheline and nepheline syenite_ Rosin Fixed vegetable oils (II): "Urushi" wax and "Uaze” wax- Common salt and pure sodium chloride (not elsewhere specified). Anthracite coal-- 4, 985 9, 293 4, 534 3, 646 1,863 Thrown silk and other silk yarn and thread- 9, 391 Silk fabrics, other than silk noil fabrics (not elsewhere specified) 5, 006 7, 819 Under-shirts, slips, and other under garments, knitted or crocheted, wholly or chiefly of wool_____ Basketwork, wickerwork and other articles of plaiting material (not Human hair, dressed, thinned, bleached or otherwise worked___- Total Source. Japanese Ministry of Finance figures, reprinted in the China Trade Report, Aug. 1970, pp. 11-12. CHINESE RECORD OF PAYMENT X The CHAIRMAN. Is it fair to say there has been no serious difficulty in payment, leaving for the moment the question of negotiation of delinquencies in delivery and so on. Generally speaking, there is no problem of payment. Dr. LUBMAN. That is correct, sir. The Chinese seem to have an excellent reputation in the international community for promptnessThe CHAIRMAN. Is it largely cash or credit? Do they take credit? Do they ask for credit? Dr. LUBMAN. They sometimes do and the Japanese do not give credit. It is my impression that most western nations do not, although the Canadians did give some short-term credit on the wheat sales. The CHAIRMAN. Ön wheat? Dr. LUBMAN. And I believe that the Chinese sometimes prepaid on those. It is my impression that most of the transactions that I know about-and I should urge on you that I know things only vicariously because it is necessary for me to study China as if it is on the other side of the moon. Most of what I know is somewhat limited, but those transactions are normally transactions involving letters of credit, so that there are no long-term credits involved. The Chinese record has been a good one. WITNESS ACCESS TO CHINESE REPRESENTATIVES IN HONG KONG The CHAIRMAN. A principal source of foreign exchange is through Hong Kong Dr. LUBMAN. I believe so; yes. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have access to discussing matters with any of the representatives of China in Hong Kong who were doing the trading. Would they talk to you? Dr. LUBMAN. Not the last time I was there. I was in Hong Kong in the fall of 1970, right after the Canton fair, and I made approaches, but they were not at that time anxious to see me; so I have had no direct contacts. The only direct contact I have had with Chinese was in the Embassy in Ottawa, which I visited once several weeks ago. The CHAIRMAN. In Ottawa. CRIMINAL PROCESSES IN CHINA You said a moment ago you were in Hong Kong for 2 years primarily to study criminal processes in China? Dr. LUBMAN. That is right, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That is rather odd. What did you find out about the criminal processes? Dr. LUBMAN. I will try to answer the question very briefly, sir, particularly if I may respond or add my response to Mr. Durdin's response to your question. I think that China is a disciplined society. Control is quite strong, although control is exerted in very different ways from those to which we are accustomed. That is, direct coercion in the form of police and such has not generally been a part of the Chinese scene, although in the early years it certainly was. I think since those early years, the threat of some sanction has been enough. The Chinese stress persuasion. The persuasion may be extremely intense and it may amount to what we might think to be a kind of punishment, but they would much rather-they have long adhered to the belief-persuade people to do the right thing, to think correctly and act correctly rather than to coerce them. Indeed, criminal punishment such as trial and conviction are considered a rather exceptional form, an extreme form of punishment. There is also, I think as part of the makeup of the Chinese people's attitude toward force, toward the system of control, a certain basic commitment on the part of many, many Chinese to the basic goals of the regime. It also has been quite clear to them that overt resistance can be punished very successfully. There may be some aspect of passivity involved as well. But I would stress the use of indirect controls, of persuasion, with emphasis on voluntaristic responses. HAS CHINA ALWAYS BEEN A DISCIPLINED SOCIETY? The CHAIRMAN. Accepting your and Mr. Durdin's view that this is a disciplined society, do you think this is a new development in China or was this traditional in China a hundred, 200, 300 years ago? Has it always been a disciplined society or not? Dr. LUBMAN. I think the amount of discipline has varied greatly. Certainly, in the hundred years preceding the Chinese Revolution, the Chinese society was much disrupted partially by contact with the West. And certainly the 50 years preceding the Chinese Communists coming to power were very disruptive indeed, and the fabric of Chinese society had been much rent by civil war, disorder, corruption, and poverty. I think that the Chinese Communists have established a system of control that extends far deeper into the roots of Chinese society than any other Chinese Government has ever been able to create. That is definitely a new phenomenon. I think it is most impressive that much of that system of control was suspended for two years during the cultural revolution, and the Chinese were able to return to a relatively orderly situation, although there have been some transitional problems. There was a good deal of disorder and crime during the cultural revolution. The Chinese themselves said this. There have been continuing campaigns against corruption and crime after the cultural revolution, but they have now abated, and I think the Chinese society has now returned in the postcultural revolution period to a newly stable and quite well-controlled system. COMPARISON OF CHINESE AND WESTERN CRIMINAL PROCESSES The CHAIRMAN. I do not wish to take the time to push you too far, but, since you brought this in about your study of criminal processes, is it at all similar to any western system of criminal justice or not? Can you make any comparison as far as your studies led you to consider? Dr. LUBMAN. I am also a professor of criminal law. The CHAIRMAN. You are? Dr. LUBMAN. It is sometimes most uncomfortable to compare not the theories of how criminal process ought to work but the actualities. I am talking here about the American criminal process, which I think is in a very bad state indeed. When we compare actual practice we find that in all societies there is a great deal of discretion that lies with police and prosecutors, and that the actual judicial determination of criminal cases deals with only a relatively minor portion of the total number of cases involving persons accused of committing a crime. I think all societies have this problem of restraining the discretion of those charged with enforcing the law. But generally, in more direct response to your question, I would say that our emphasis is on a system of impartial adjudication with the participation of trained lawyers on both sides. That is at least the theory of American criminal process, and the Chinese theory is totally different. The CHAIRMAN. In what respect? Dr. LUBMAN. Well, that is that under the Chinese system most criminals are punished administratively, and the extent of discretion, police use of discretion, is controlled, supposedly, by the officials paying close attention to really gathering competent evidence against the accused person. Most Chinese defendants confess. A failure to confess is a very serious matter, and may result in a prolonged trial during which, in theory, the court must go into the evidence in a very detailed fashion. However, if the defendant is found guilty, his denial of his guilt may be held against him. He is not represented by a lawyer. The Chinese did experiment briefly with lawyers on the model of the Soviet Union and abandoned, largely abandoned, as far as I know, that experiment, considering that lawyers might possibly interfere with the search for the truth, as they put it, and might possibly end up by shielding counterrevolutionaries who ought to be punished. I think the systems are terribly different and it is difficult for me to compare them rather briefly without doing injustice to both of them, I am afraid. NET RESULT OF SYSTEM ON ORDINARY PEOPLE OF CHINA The CHAIRMAN. In summary, is it possible to generalize that the ordinary people of China are mistreated or subject to injustices to a greater extent than they are in the average Western country or this county, whichever you like? Do you feel the net result of this is any great imposition upon the ordinary citizen of China or not? Dr. LUBMAN. Well, there is an imposition in the sense that the kind of individual choices which we like our citizens to be able to make are not permitted to the Chinese citizens. The CHAIRMAN. It is unjust then. Would you say there are many more examples of injustice? Dr. LUBMAN. That depends on whose standards of justice you use, it seems to me. We judge other nations by a highly abstract model of what our system of justice ought to be, and it is very easy to find fault with just about every nation in the world. The CHAIRMAN. I mean the way it is, not the way it ought to be. Dr. LUBMAN. Well, the way it is, I think that the Chinese are undergoing a very difficult time of social experiment, in the attempt to construct a new nation and a new order, and by our lights there are restrictions on freedom which many of us would find intolerable. That is correct, sir. On the other hand, I think that many Chinese have shown a willingness to contribute to this effort, and a good many Chinese I do not think would want to apply the same standards of individual choice and of due process. That does not mean that the Chinese may have a totally different notion of individual freedom than we do but there has been a tremendous emphasis on the collective, on working together, which causes a great deal of group pressure on individuals which many individuals do resent. I did not mean to imply that Chinese somehow value individual freedom less than we do. However, other priorities have intervened, and I think the majority of Chinese probably accept that different order of priorities. That is not a direct answer to your question, but I think it is a very hard question to answer in a very exact way. The CHAIRMAN. The questions are dictated out of a great sense of ignorance, as you know. We are only groping trying to find something out about a country about which we know very little. Dr. LUBMAN. I certainly consider myself a groper along with you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Which explains, I suppose, the impropriety, if it is, of my questions. I will yield to our leading lawyer. He is much more capable of pursuing this kind of subject than I am. |